RAF Dakota KN633

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AHB Replies

Owh well. It go another round again like what we have with KL654/R.

Get an answer from AHB with the help of Joe Bamford.

“Both JCCC and ourselves are aware that the crash site of Dakota KN633 has been located. The crew of the aircraft were buried at the crash site and the grave should not be disturbed by any persons.”

Are they serious? Not to be disturbed? Malaysian jungles were smaller and smaller every year and development were near to the wreck site. If we did not act fast, the graves could be destroyed and gone forever.

Shaharom Ahmad
MHG

Thank you very much..

At Malaysia this time, after the blockage of the emergency lifted out ( most of the jungle still black areas till Communist Surrender in 1989 ), many people suddenly entering the jungles that were off limit to them before and most of the hidden wreckage that crashed during ww2 and the emergency were found. Yet, stories coming in how they found human remains in the wreckage where the plane still list as missing or buried near the wreckage and forgotten by RAF but not to the families.

Like Dakota KN633, the area of the plane crashed were unforgiving, deep slope ravine, thick jungle and communist threat which made the rescue attempt were hazardous to the people and military who involved with the recovery. The quick way is to buried them in the jungle and will come back in future to retrieved them back. It is not happen like they planned. The graves were forgotten, the people who involved were no longer in service and the records were simply stashed away quietly in a dark room.

Stories still coming in to us and when we check the database, the crews of KN633 still listed at Terendak Memorial as no known grave. Flt/Lt Ballard record showed that he was buried near the wreckage. For us, KN633 case is a continuity of other RAF losses in Malaya at that time. A few planes still missing till now and people were often traveled far deep in jungle searching for wreckage as their source of income..

Keep in touch

Shaharom Ahmad
MHG

I would like to think that the intentions of the JCCC are of the very best, but that it is simply the case they are overwhelmed by cases, have no budget, no staff and no remit (or ability) from HMG to be pro-active.

Although it is a long time ago (1970s) I still get very angry when I recall a post-military funeral puce faced rant by a senior MOD officer who, in defending the MOD’s position, proclaimed “Have you any idea how much military funerals like these cost?!”

There was a momentary (very) stunned silence, and I noticed a nearby RAF Officer blanche. For one glorious moment I actually thought he was about to draw his sword!

I kid you not. A witness to this outburst was Steve Vizard of Airframe Assemblies who stood alongside me. And that comment isn’t taken out of context.

A country that continues to turn a blind eye and actively support, for instance, the continued commemoration of convicted and executed murderers on a CWGC monument has morally lost its way in relation to its historic war dead. And in that context I mean the establishment. Not the people.

I agree with what Andy say’s and respect and appreciate the work done by the small team at the JCCC. I wish we as a country did more, but the fact is the British Government will no longer actively look for its fallen and does not appear willing to fund or support efforts to recover airmen by private individuals. They only get involved once a discovery has been made and handed over to the local authorities in country. In the current climate with cuts in funding and resources in the public sector & to the armed forces I do not see this changing.

Thanks for the newspaper cutting, Shaharom.

Possibly the records of the Second Scots Guards are accessible and might reveal more? You will recall that in the case of our mutual investigation into the loss of Liberator KH326 in Malaya (one of only two RAF Liberators lost in Malaya, the other being KL654, where Shaharom & gang recovered the remains so honorably), a hunt through the records of the Royal Scots Fusiliers turned up their patrol report, plus the actual annotated map used when they accidentally discovered the wreck in 1955. So maybe Second Scots Guards records might contain additional info. I will write to Joe Plant regarding this, and I bet he runs with it and makes contact with the right people.

Regarding KH326, not meaning to be self-promoting, readers may be interested in an on-line summary. I need to make some changes, but 99.9% is accurate:

http://www.rquirk.com/357files/AndrewsbioVer12short.pdf

Part Seven covers the discovery by the RSF in 1955 and includes their map. With luck, Second Scots Guards records will similarly be of great help.

But that doesn’t solve the problem of learning hometowns. It was easy with KH326’s crew, but 1948 casualties are a different story. Shaharom, I’ll write to you privately when I get a chance to offer suggestions.

It is very true that JCCC’s funding is a severe handicap to them, and that the MoD does not have the mandate to search for human remains. Yet as both Shaharom and I know from our projects in the Far East, JCCC makes matters much, MUCH more difficult than necessary for legitimate researchers, like us, who have handed them almost-finished projects on proverbial silver platters. Neither Shaharom nor I are bald…yet…but we’ve plucked out a few hairs in frustration.

Someone here in the US — a single winner from South Carolina — just won a $400 million lottery yesterday. I think we need to get in line with all the other beggars and try to influence said winner into parting with some money.

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Proof that the remains were buried near the wreckage.

Thank you. It seems the logical of the search were same as what we did before with KL654. The main problem that i did not have records of the crews home town which all these records were kept by AHB and RAF. It is good to published it on local newspaper but i’m stayed and lived far from England where I lived at Malaysia where the plane crashed. I already sent another email to Sue Raftree from JCCC and hope she would reply.

Shaharom
MHG.

Shaharom

If I can add something that may help, I undertook a similar task to get relatives together of ex Cadets of our ATC Squadron who died during the war. In my case it was easy because they all came from the same locality but tweaking the method a little may help. if you can find the home town of each of the casualties and raise the issue with the local paper requesting contact with the relatives that may produce a result – certainly did in our case. All five casualties relatives were tracked down and contact made.

I agree with the comment re the JCCC in that they are seriously under-funded and are in no position to intervene in most of these cases. Distance is also a factor. People can complain as much as they like, but it will not change. One thing in my opinion that could be done would be for the JCCC to issue a ‘what to do’ guide for the various embassies around the world. It seems to me that they are often caught unawares and don’t know how to handle this type of situation. And they don’t seem to share the knowledge. We see this with events around KL654 and the P-40 in Egypt. Not a perfect solution but at least the Defense Staff would have a reference document and could intervene in some positive way without making bad mistakes.

Yes, based from our previous project, a tedious work to convince people at MoD and JCCC to assist us. Their main reason is short of budget and men to do the work. It is up to volunteer parties to do it for them and when all finished, MoD and JCCC can take the credit in the media. Based on our work, none came out from MoD or JCCC to ever thank us for what we did. Not a single note or email. But this would not stop us. More missing men need to be recovered and they are waiting and waiting in the jungle. Time and limited budget were the main factor for us.

The main agenda is to get contact with NOKs and establishing agreement for us to get in. It would take a few months or a few years but at least something are moving..

Another discovery that the missing Spitfire TP231 was found not far from the KN633 wreckage. Sad part that the locals were removed the wreckage and sell for money. The area of the crashed was turned into orchids farm but i believe most of the part including engine, human remain still buried deep in the ground.

Those men who killed ( Spitfire TP231 and Dakota KN633 ) have families. They still waiting for the news to come up for their loves one. And AHB, JCCC and RAF have the records together with the families addresses all in one. We need to break an ice just to give a wide news to the families which i believed were told by RAF or MoD falsely about their missing men. It happen to Dakota KN630 families. A photo contained a fake graves near the wreckage where funeral ceremonies took place were sent to the relatives. The truth that the crews were buried hasty in one shallow grave!.

Shaharom Ahmad
MHG

I would like to think that the intentions of the JCCC are of the very best, but that it is simply the case they are overwhelmed by cases, have no budget, no staff and no remit (or ability) from HMG to be pro-active.

Although it is a long time ago (1970s) I still get very angry when I recall a post-military funeral puce faced rant by a senior MOD officer who, in defending the MOD’s position, proclaimed “Have you any idea how much military funerals like these cost?!”

There was a momentary (very) stunned silence, and I noticed a nearby RAF Officer blanche. For one glorious moment I actually thought he was about to draw his sword!

I kid you not. A witness to this outburst was Steve Vizard of Airframe Assemblies who stood alongside me. And that comment isn’t taken out of context.

A country that continues to turn a blind eye and actively support, for instance, the continued commemoration of convicted and executed murderers on a CWGC monument has morally lost its way in relation to its historic war dead. And in that context I mean the establishment. Not the people.

Just to say I appreciate your efforts in this matter, Shaharom, but that from my own experience the MoD, including JCCC, can be frustrating if you are trying to get help from them. In a recent case in which I am involved the MoD claim to be relying on information from the British Embassy, and the embassy representative says that the case is closed. So where does one turn next? As Matt says above, the government/MoD does not seem to be willing to help much, if at all. I agree that the crew’s remains should be recovered and treated with the respect they deserve.
I shall follow your efforts with interest.

Hi, Shaharom,

This will — no doubt — be another case where the the British government won’t lift a finger to assist in recovering remains, unless you find an obvious gravesite, or you recover remains yourselves and force them upon the MoD — like you did with the remains of the crew of Liberator KL654. Same old story that you have encountered before.

I can’t find any hometown info, so far, on the men, and I only have the full names of two casualties. Details (some of which you already know):

42836 S/Ldr Donald Kenneth HAYES, age 30, RAF
175915 F/Lt Dennis George BALLARD, age 27 [sometimes erroneously listed as P.G. Ballard], RAF
2201490 Nav II F. WHITE, age 25, RAF
1593450 Signaller II N [or M?] TYSON, age 28, RAF
56651 Maj R.Q. GAITLEY, age 36, King’s Regiment, British Army

Dakota KN633 was flying with 110 Squadron. Crashed after hitting trees during search for Spitfire TP231 6 miles east of Rawang, Selangor, about 25 miles north of Kuala Lumpur, 12 November 1948.

Not much to go on, I know.

Cheers,

Matt

Thank you all.

Andy, could you share with me your story of kl654?

Like KN633, there have been a few cases that RAF planes went missing during ww2 and the Emergency. And we do get a few experince with MoD, JCCC regarding our previous project like Dakota KN630 and Liberator KL654. In fact I took almost 16 years fighting with thr families to get MoD and JCCC to accept thr wreckage that we found was KL654.

I believe those missing crew and their planes will discovered soon and we do hope that the authority like MoD and JCCC would more helpful than what they have done before. Spoken to Matt Poole before and he should agree with me based from his unfinished case involving RAF Liberator.

Back to KN633, a few stories came from locals that they found human remains during the removal of the parts for scrap and i think they should deserve better in a proper military burial rather than push aside and forgotten. I could not fight alone on this but i’m sure with the help from you all and the families, it could stir up something to MoD.

Keep in touch.

Shaharom Ahmad
MHG.

Shaharom,

Thank you for thinking about the crew.

I covered the story of Liberator KL654 in ‘Finding The Fallen’ – a very similar story, in fact!

If I can help you, Shaharom, I will. Your quest is certainly laudable and you will find much support on this forum.

Just to add; I am also following up the story of a missing Mosquito crew in India at the request of family members of the navigator.

I am sure Matt Poole may also have an interest in Dakota KN633.

Hello Shaharom,

I’m afraid that I cannot help you in your quest. However I agree with your sentiments with regards to the crew and wish you success in finding their families. Your efforts are to be admired.

Thanks wieesso.

The links and photo at http://www.malaysian-museums.org/rmaf/serendah.htm were provided by us who visit the crashed site.

Shaharom Ahmad
MHG -Researcher

Have you perceived this link already?
http://www.malaysian-museums.org/rmaf/serendah.htm

‘Gunships
There were many pre-Vietnam gunship-like aircraft — not only in the USA — and even more helicopter during and after this war. I will concentrate here on USAF and USMC fixed-wing gunships, starting with the early ’60s.
Project Gunship (I): Douglas C-47, FC-47D, AC-47D
Their call sign in Vietnam was _SPOOKY_.
Known serials are: 43-48072, 43-48491 _’Git-Em’_Bullett_, 43-48579 _”Puff”_, 43-48701, 43-48801, 43-49274, 43-49852, 44-76534, 44-76985, 45-927.’
http://umcc.ais.org/~schnars/aero/gunships.htm

…and not a photo – but …
http://www.rafweb.org/SqnMark106-110.htm