Shuttleworth recent additions

HP

Look forward to polishing your Mercury when it arrives at OW. 😀

tc

Miles Aircraft

Hi Ozplane,

The Shoreham Gemini is in my opinion the best one on the market by far. It is owned by Adrian Brook, an engineer who also finished the restoration of my gorgeous Magister.

The Mercury, whilst a regular flier and well maintained by the guys in the Stauning Mueum, is an older restoration and a major overhaul is an obvious consideration. People are also frightened off by the Blackburn Cirrus Major – a fine engine if properly sorted but not so easy to maintain or find spares for as a Gipsy. I know that I will be far happier next week behind my jewel of a 10/2 in the Falcon, courtesy of Vintec, whilst crossing mile after mile of ‘Stage One IKEA'(!).

I had all sorts of plans to restore the Mercury to its original specification but things move on.

From an airshow perspective it wouldn’t blow as many frocks up as my new additions are likely to either.

The Mercury has therefore slipped a long way down my wish-list. However, if it came at the right money I probably wouldnt be able to turn it down.

H

Thanks for the response, HP, and I do see the difficulty. If the Shoreham Gemini is up for sale at £35K with a current C of A, it is hard to see that the Mercury is worth twice as much. I guess he is trying to recoup some of the large wad of Scandanavian notes he must have ploughed in to it over the years.

Mercury

Hi Ozplane,

I have tried to prise the Mercury from Hans Kolby Hansen in the past. Indeed, I believe it would be in my ownership by now if I hadn’t been..ahem….somewhat distracted recently.

Here is a typical dilemna for enthusiasts like me. The Mercury is the sole survivor of its type. It has been for sale for a long time now without success. This means Hans either wants too much money for it or there just isnt a buyer for it anywhere in the world.

I suspect a bit of both because I was a willing buyer at less money!

It has a wonderful history and should be brought back home to the UK.

The trouble is, people are generally worried, with good reason unfortunately, about old plywood aeroplanes. If it was a DH-type it would have sold long ago.

Fingers crossed somebody here will buy it. However, whilst I’m willing to cross my fingers I aint going to hold my breath……

I can provide more information about it if anybody wants to PM me. OY-ALW took me to Denmark in speed and comfort a few years back so I know it quite well.

Come on Hans, drop the price and we’ll talk!

H

And the Mercury as well…..pretty please!

Various

Hi Ritch & Max,

Well b@gg@r me with a frozen mophead, I can’t believe that pile of junk is flying again! Well done indeed, I am sure Chris Harrison will be delighted to hear it Down Under. Interestingly enough, the old shed it was in is now a beautiful office suite full of lovely ladies. That grotty coutyard is now paved in Yorkstone with a very nice water feature in the middle, designed by the lovely Nicky whose talents know no bounds – a daily voyage of discovery.

Making money out of old planes? Pay a quid and dowload some accounts from the Companies House website. I would especialy urge anybody contemplating putting down a sizeable deposit to do this – sound advice be it work on your house, car or whizzer. You may find that household names out there have a surprisingly low turnover and may well have been making significant losses year after year.

You can bet that if the men with clipboards and rolls of sticky labels bang on their door, you may well look at your whizzer ( or the pile of bits that was once…) and wonder where your money went.

Take the right precautions, make the right decisions and you should enjoy some of the best craftsmanship in the world here in Blighty.

Fingers crossed for the Weather next week, we are off on a one-way Ryanair trip to Stockholm Vasteras to bring the Miles Falcon back from their museum.

H

I hate to say this but up to a point the marketplace will decide the rate for the job!

That’s part of my point. 😉

The problem is what’s ‘reasonable’? If you pay above the market rate in the field, or more than what you can afford to do (generally staff costs are your biggest continuing cost) you go bust. It’s a narrow window.

James

I hate to say this but up to a point the marketplace will decide the rate for the job! I make the point with distaste as we are constantly told that the marketplace dictates the disgusting quantities of money being paid to the big earners in the City and the world of sport to name two groups!

Dave is quite correct we do need to train more wood and fabric workers in the old skills, the question at the moment still remains who is going to do the training?

Cheers

Eric

The above apart, I’ve noted the comments made by Damien and James regarding paying the rate for the job. I have sympathy with both points of view; however I suspect that any company who failed to pay a reasonable rate for job would eventually see their investment disappearing to pastures new!

The problem is what’s ‘reasonable’? If you pay above the market rate in the field, or more than what you can afford to do (generally staff costs are your biggest continuing cost) you go bust. It’s a narrow window.

I wonder how many people are left in the UK that can still do wood and fabric work on aircraft. My father is in his late 70’s and trying to wind down work so that he can do his own glider’s and a bit on my Luton Minor. But he is asked to help from people all over the world. Normaly just a email or looking at some drawings. He turns down most jobs now. Im a thatcher so dont get to much time to spend on my luton minor or restore my two classic motor bikes. My son who is 24 has been brought up with aeroplanes and gliders (he was mentioned in Flypast when he was 5 years old as a crew member of Russavia at Duxford). He has helped his grandad working on many rare vintage gliders and flying in them. He loves aircraft but works with me. He spends a lot of spare time building flying models or taking photos of aircraft. We both dont have the skills to carry out a full restoration. Its hard enough just trying to sort out a good piece of timber.

I think in the future we do need to train up more wood and fabric workers as we will need them.
Dave

How many youngsters are learning the artisan skills of aircraft woodworking? Where do they learn it? How can they afford to learn it? I see a major skill shortage looming.

H

Hi all,

I have been reading this thread with particular interest; I am a product of the now largely defunct British engineering industry, having been an indentured electrical apprentice for five years at the end of the 1960’s / the start of the 1970’s, I might add that I then spent another five or more years training as a draughtsman, in the days when we still used drawing boards!

In those days the bigger companies had apprentice schemes that ultimately fed the countries need for skilled people. Sadly the pool of skilled people declined along with the United Kingdoms decline as a manufacturer. Over the period of decline a belief arose that it was the government’s responsibility to bridge the skill gap, this they did under various banners, sadly I believe rather badly. Be that as it may, the labour market gained poorly trained people on the cheap and the pool of apprenticeships got even smaller. .

In the past, preservation based companies would have relied on bigger employers to provide the pool of skilled labour, sadly all too often the companies who provided the pool of what these days can only described as specialist labour no longer exist.

The answer surely must lie in organisations like “The Shuttleworth Collection”, hatching apprentice schemes to develop the all important skills in house.

The above apart, I’ve noted the comments made by Damien and James regarding paying the rate for the job. I have sympathy with both points of view; however I suspect that any company who failed to pay a reasonable rate for job would eventually see their investment disappearing to pastures new!

Blue Skies

Eric

I’d be up for a Gemini in a few years time when my boys are older and their fees aren’t sapping at my cash. Unfortunately I will have to pass for now.

Slightly off topic but there is a Miles Gemini for sale at the moment, along with the Miles Mercury in Scandanavia. The Gemini in particular seems to prove the point that a restored airworthy airframe is much cheaper than starting a restoration as it’s up for sale at about £35K. Wouldn’t those two aircraft complement HPs Miles types nicely. Any philanthropists about?

Where do the next genoration start?

I have a son, just turned 16, who is aviation crazy, he started about 3 years ago, working with a group of enthusiasts at Bruntingthorpe, we then purchased an old T-31B glider (which by a strange coincidence, was stored in a shed at Peter Holloway’s home), which we started to restor, and is now flying with a gliding club field in north Wales. Yes Peter, that trailer load of bits actualy made it back into the air! We now own a Jet Provost, which we maintain in taxiable condition.
This winter he has started the National Aviation Heritage Skills Initiative, and is proud to now have his first City & Guilds accreditation, which was a great help in getting a good place at a sith form college, so thanks to the BAPC for that initiative, it realy does help the yopung in particular.
He desperatly wants to work in the vintage aircraft restoration / preservation or maintenance field’s, but were does he go from here? we live in Leicestershire, and the opertunities for training and employment are just not there, and not everyone wants to work on Airbus’s or Boeing’s.
He would jump at the opertunity to learn the skills already mentioned in this thread, he knows it wont make him rich, but he does no that it would be rewarding, if only the opertunities were there.
He is efectivly learning his trade for free at the moment, working with a very good group of guys at Bruntingthorpe, but he is limited in what he can learn at an outdoor colection, one day a week.
I am sure there are many more like him, who just want a chance to get a foot in the door, but where are the doors for them?
Any ideas?

going off topic here but, how does the certification side of things work (assuming youre not a licenced aircraft engineer in addition to a lawyer.. 😀 ).. presume you have to get someone in to sign off your work??

Neil

Yep we sure do! I made the point simply because it minimises entering shark-infested waters…. many many volunteers work under the supervision of licenced engineers as you know.

For my part there is no way I could afford to own a share in any warbird – this way I earn my share in our T-6 by working on it myself with our group and moreover learning skills as I go. My satisfaction is not dollar based, but when she flies boy, that will be worth the hard work alone.. also I know she’ll be the best damn Texan on the block cos I’ve seen and helped restore every square inch of her….

The discussion of certain trades as a dying art is a very valid one but many of the skills cant be learned from textbooks and manuals – it is something that is handed down by practical apprenticeship, demonstration or trial and error.

As for not being in the industry to make money – depends. Most owners would agree that it often costs a great deal of money to restore something which, if looked at in cash terms provides no return. Funnily enough i was talking to Blue Max about this the other night over a beer – eg TOTAL Auster rebuild with 0 timed engine say £30-40k, one to buy off the shelf £20k MAX.

the rewards then must outweigh the expenditure- the enjoyment of actually working, understanding and appreciating an airframe and the ‘I did that’ satisfaction have no £ value.

HOWEVER, there is little doubt that the warbird industry does make money in certain quarters – the owners of ARCO, Air Atlantique, Skysport, etc etc (not singling them out but you get the idea) HAVE mortgages to pay and wages to settle. SIGNIFICANT money can be made and businesses do thrive on the back of the work.

We mustnt confuse out and out professional warbird businesses with enthusiasts, owners and group members, though the edges are often blurred in distinction.

TT

Apologies for going back to the earlier topic, however, there is a nice article in this Month’s A*r*p*a*e covering the recent happenings at OW and this year’s airshow plans.

Allegedly the author occasionally posts here.

M7T

Interesting points all….our solution with our own aeroplanes is to restore them ourselves rather than pay someone else to do it – v. rewarding and I’m almost guaranteed not to rip myself off… though being a lawyer, it is always a possibility…:diablo:

TT

Taking this point back to where this discussion started – somone mentioned the high cost of restoring the Prentice. I thought (though I may be wrong) that much of the work being done on the Prentice was by SVAS volunteers – I assume it one one of those that resigned.

I came through the state education system in the days when woodwork and metalwork were still taught – and I think I am the better for it. IF I ever get the chance to fulfil a lifelong ambition to build (or restore to flight) an aeroplane it would be a wooden type calling on the skills I learned at school (and to a lesser degree in aeromodelling).

The home-building fraternity (PFA) have, in the past, provided a source of amatuer skills introduced into restoration – as TT says “doing it ourselves”.

For Guzziniel there is a well established system of PFA Engineers who will inspect, offer advice, etc to PFA members building or restoring an aircraft that will fly on a Permit To Fly.

Sadly it looks like this is changing. 30 years ago nearly all home-builts were of wooden construction – still employing skills established in the earliest days of flight. Now, I get the impression very few “home-builts” are constructed in wood – many are of metal construction and, increasingly, of composite materials (a lot of these in ‘kit’ form).

Efforts are being made by various organisations to interest children in aviation cos, let’s face it, it isn’t as exciting a subject as it was 30 -40 years ago. Then test pilots were famous people and aeroplane first/test flights appeared regularly in our daily papers.

We have got to think of more ways to interest young people in aviation and re-introduce learning practical skills – even if under the term of “leisure activities”.

Roger Smith.

Is it the rose-tinted glasses or being on the other side of the world that are affecting your vision JDK?

You are in descent, clearly. Looking at things as they are, as a researcher in the heritage business is hardly wearing rose-tinted spectacles. How many senior staff of national level aviation museums have you interviewed BTW? I’ve been discussing the matter of reward and recruitment with a number of people in aviation museums in the UK, the USA and Canada as well as here, quite recently. :rolleyes:

I’m not sure how thatched cottages and the activities in other countries have any relevance whatsoever to a discussion about the loss of traditional aircraft maintenance skills in the UK, but fill your boots.

Don’t you? Your loss. Some of us find it interesting to look at things globally, and draw lessons from overseas and comparative fields, but ignorance is always easier. 😉

I’ve always wondered about the logic behind statements like ‘If it paid well it wouldn’t attract the right kind of people’. It’s up there with ‘Paying my employees a minimum wage would bankrupt my company’, and it’s just the same load of crap that is.

If you stopped wondering and tried to find out why these things happen, as well as being stated, we wouldn’t be having this discussion. Having managed a couple of multi-million pound businesses in the UK paying very poorly, I’m very familiar from both ends of the minimum wage saga. It’s a crappy world, but if you’d like to study the economic theory of wages, you’ll find that pay levels are always a disincentive. Odd, but true. If you want excellent employees, doing great work, other forms of reward and remuneration than cash in the bank are required.

Oh and there’s an ‘h’ in ‘rhetorical’. Shame on you. :diablo:

Not really. Molesworth’s my avatar for that reason, and a spelling mistake hardly supports your argument, just shows you need a cheap hit. I’m sure you’ll come back on this – so carry on. I’m willing to learn, so I’ll be delighted to hear how you’ve got it all figured out. Mainly, it seems you need to be quick and right. Here you aren’t, sorry.

Cheers,

If it’s rubbish, where are the hordes of people wanting to be underpaid for a skilled job?

Who said there is jobs for hordes?

Indeed. A few hundred people in a country of 60 million…

If you want these skills to survive beyond a handful of people, you need to make it attractive for more than just those who do it for love.

Nope; I’m talking, from direct experience, including interviews, of people in the USA, Canada, Belgium, France, Italy, Germany, Ireland, Australia and New Zealand.

The heritage biz a niche industry, and vintage aircraft restoration another niche, and will remain so even if there were cash thrown at them. How many vintage wooden aircraft can be made before the market saturates? How many buildings need thatch? Britain has a bigger heritage industry than most countries; but paying people more equitably wouldn’t increase the quality of work undertaken significantly – that’s an economic consequence as well.

While Hairyplane makes a very good point regarding some sharks and costs generally, at the moment there are mostly dedicated people doing this kind of work now, because they sure aren’t in it for the quick buck. We need a few more, and I agree, a better, more secure future provision, but saying it’s equitably (or well) paid won’t attract the right kind of new faces; although it would be a great thing to happen if the world worked differently. That economics thing again.

Cheers,

Whilst perhaps not yet specific to early aviation skills [woodworking etc], people should not overlook the National Aviation Heritage Skills Initiative that was instigated about two years ago.

This provides skills training; is City & Guilds accredited and can be accessed via British Aviation Preservation Council [BAPC] member organisations.

I understand that the scheme is proving very successful amongst many preservation groups across the UK, with some groups having a wider than anticipated uptake from amongst their volunteers.

That having been said it is no replacement for a recognised apprentice based scheme within an aviation maintenance / restoration company, but at least it is a start.

Check out the link below.

http://www.nahsi.org.uk