Bf-110 Zerstorer

Me110 1. SKG 210 mit Rückblickfernrohr

An explanation in English would be nice! So what is a rear-vision telescope then?

but wait there’s more

A quick Google finds this thread on ww2aircraft.net discussing 110-G4 armament
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aircraft-requests/me-110-g4-armament-5601.html
It doesn’t answer your specific queries PhantomII but touches on them, and there’s a guy there named Erich who says “I have the official Bf 110G arms handbook with blue cover covering all the nose and belly arms details”
You could join that forum and pm him – and get your answers I reckon

That Hinchcliffe book is a fantastic read.
In regard to Schräge music, some pilots used it almost exclusively thus carried more ammo for those guns than say the others in the nose.

On the same note, well aimed 20mm MG151 rounds could cripple/destroy bombers with the shortest of bursts from Schräge weapons.
I’ve always liked the 110, have seen the Hendon G version, will hopefully see the F next time I’m in Germany

More from that source … the MG 151 fired at around 800 rounds per minute so at 200 rounds each cannon had approx 15 seconds of ammunition. Typical aiming was between the inner and outer engines on a four engined heavy (into the fuel tanks) and to quote again … “The Schrage Musik cannon fired a mixture of armour peircing, explosive and incendiary ammunition, and a split second burst, a single pressure of the thumb on the firing-button, was usually sufficient to set the wing ablaze and damage the [aircraft] beyond hope of recovery.”

Hinchcliffe goes on to discuss why the fuselage of the bomber was rarely targeted (a) because of the vulnerability of the wing, (b) because of the danger of exploding bombs if aiming into the fuselage and (c) because (so say a number of his sources) many of the Nachtjagd fliers wanted to give the crews a chance (albeit slim) to get out alive. Problem with that as we know is that aircraft with one wing ablaze don’t fly very well and the crew literally had only seconds to react and get out. Damn near impossible, particularly from the Lancaster.

He also notes that Schrage Musik was not known about, or even suspected, by the Allies until well into 1944. Aircraft targeted rarely survived, and the phenomenon of a sudden unexplained fire and explosion in the sky was put down by RAF crews to be “scarecrows”, deliberate explosive flares fired by the Germans to scare them.

The Other Battle

Peter Hinchcliffe in “The Other Battle”, IMHO by far the best book about the clash between RAF Bomber Command and the Nachtjagd, discusses Schrage Musik in some detail, he notes early field experiments started as early as mid-1942 (with MG FFs) but then goes on (now refering to sometime in 1943) to say “the R 22 modification comprised two Mauser 20 mm MG 151 cannons, each with 200 rounds.” All non-tracer BTW “in the interests of maintaining the element of surprise” not to mention avoiding glare for the Nachtjagd crew.

If I find more I will post.

This is a very interesting topic. I have also got a soft spot for the Bf110. As was pointed out earlier, it had some notable shortcomings, but it was a very good looking machine. Under the old ‘If it looks right, it flies right’ theory it should have been a far better machine than it was. Were they underpowered? The power plants fitted would appear to be sufficent for an aircraft of that size. So what was its problem? Admittedly it lacked manoeuverability for action in the presence of single seat fighters but that applies equally to countless other twin engined twoseaters. The aircraft was aerodynamically clean for the period. It really is difficult to see where it went wrong.

Anyone have thoughts?

Funny how some things are easy to find and others are hard to find.

Thanks for your replies.

Do you think that if perhaps smaller weapons couldn’t be carried on the ETC500 racks and maybe ETC50 racks could instead be fitted? Perhaps a maximum of six SC50 bombs as compared to four SC50’s and two SC250’s or SC500’s. ?

Yes Moggy, that would give an idea. But problem is that rpg is more restricted by the carrier than the gun it self, so what would be the correct number in a He 219 is maybe not right for the Bf 110, but to tell the truth, I do not know.

Another thing is, that the 100 rpg, is given for the MK 108 but a lot of the Schrage Musik Bf 110´s were equipped with the MG 151/20 20mm weapon. It was only in later versions that the MK 108 showed up.

This from a flight sim site.

Place on it what credence you will.

The Schrage Musik in the He219 were usually two MK108 30 mm cannon with 100 rpg

Moggy

I´ve failed to find answers to most of your questions, number of rounds etc. is something that the normal author does not seem to include in books. The german designator system is very complicated, and various /U and /R modifications muddle the water very much. Basically, as I understand it (no reason to suspect that is correct!), the /U variant is a field modificaton, while /R is a modification made on the poduction line and might be the same as a different /U number. From the book Messerschmitt Bf 110 by Terry C. Treadwell:
Bf 110-4/U9: Later redesigned G-4/R3 this variant was fitted with two MK 108 cannon in the upper nose section.
That tends to tell me that the field modifications were adobted on the production line. No further mention is made in this book about a G-4/R3 variant. Ony the G4a to d

Next in line, as a variant is this one:
Bf 110G4a/R1: GM 1 power-boost system. Two ETC500 bomb racks fitted to the under fuselage and four ETC50 racks under the wings. Also fitted with a Hirschgeweih aerial mounting for radar.

Then we have, a little further down the line:
Bf 110G4b/R1: Fitted with Lichtenstein C1 and Hirschgeweih aerials

And now for this question from you.

From what I understand the -110G was not only a daylight bomber destroyer, but it was also a fighter-bomber and like earlier models could carry bombs of various sizes. I know that a rack could be carried under the fuselage to carry two 250 or 500-kg bombs and then underwing racks could carry four more smaller 50-kg bombs. I was wondering smaller bombs could be carried on the fuselage racks or if they were only designed for 250 & 500-kg weapons.
PII

I do not think the ETC 500 could handle very small weapons. IIRC the ETC500was what they called universal bombrack that could handle anything from 100 kg and to the big ones. I stand corrected on that one though!;)

However, this variant shows that something smaller could be carried:
Bf 110G4b/R3 Similar to the G4b/R1 but armament included two 20mm Mg 151/20 cannon and ETC50 or ETC500 racks

So on the face of it, I would say that it could carry small bombs on an ETC50 rack, but depending on the designation, and like I said before the german designations are a nightmare to get through!;)