Museums and Radiation

I think there are bigger problems that the hair falling off ya sack from getting intimate with instrument faces.. I remember a WIWOL looking at a well known Lightning in the UK & pointing out one of the missiles hanging from it still contained the proximity fuse…
…so be extra careful around Dx….;)

Radio active instruments

THe BAPC are running a great scheem for Preservationists. The first module of 8 (I think) has delt with this problem.
There is one thing that is missing, however, from the discussions. The Radioactive nasty stuff is Radium 226. this wil linger for 1600 Years quietly turning into Radon 222 this is thr Radon we hear so much about.
It is a gas and will diffuse out og all but a totaly vacuum sealed housing.
It hangs arround for 3.6 days,ish, then in fairly short order nips through three changes to end up, for the time being, as lead 210 for 23 years then on through bismouth 210 and the notorious Polonium 210.
In the process there is some Gamma radiation need to check eht typical levals, and a fair dose of Beta.
Gama radiation is like radioo light UV radar ets but much more penetrating you need 2″ lead to stop it.
The other product is Beta radiation. (Electrons in a bl**dy hurry) . this can be stopped by 10mm Aluminium or s bit more plexiglass Perspex etc.
The lasy product is Alpha radiation this will go 15mm in air not much further. wont get through your skin, They are Helium Nucleui billions of times heavier than the electrons and inside you like being hit by 15″ shels rather than a BB gun. So dont get it in you we all know what happens if you do.
Trouble with the Radon Daughters is they are Alpha emitters and single atomsthat attach to dust in the air up to 56,000 per CC often over 2500 / cc.
These can be breathed in and settle on anythingin the cockpit.
I have done tests on their migration and they got out of a double heavy duty zipper bag and produced traces on the outer bag it wes in.
All this in the space of a 9 month period.
There is a risk it all depends on the circumstances.
I have Alpha, Beta and Gama probes that I am going to get recalibrated so may be able to help.
I have a RPS chit from work some years ago as we were working with Uranium Hydride (yugh) quite nasty.
You go look for contamination with a GM tube Gounter and will find little to nothing. Go seek with an alpha or beta probe and you see a different story
jb154

MAM MiG21

Sorry I’m late responding, but my Wifi has been giving me trouble (I live on a boat).

Thanks for the offer of a look at the MiG cockpit, mate, but I moved/cruised to Hertfordshire and have no car.

Bri:)

Depleted uranium

The other radiation risk on aircraft is depleted uranium. I am not talking about what may be inside weapons temporarily attached to an aircraft. I recall that in my time in servicing aircraft, the biggest radiation hazard bought to my attention was the depleted uranium counter weights. This however is not a problem for WWII period aircraft as far as I am aware.

This topic continues to do the rounds every 4-6 months or so and has been going on for the last few years which is really a good thing as people need to be aware of the potential problems and health hazards.

I am going to throw my tupence into the ring here and explain things from my experience and perspective. I am not a scientist, avionics instrument maker or a health and safety expert, I am purely a novice who collectors aircraft instrument panels and instruments to which I have many.

If everyone out there shares their experiences and knowledge then we may have a better understanding of this issue, as at the moment there seems to be a great panic with aircraft instruments. Before I start, I am not ashamed to loose any face on this matter and I stand to be corrected on everything I have stated, the following is only my experiences as a collector.

Radiation hazard does not apply to every instrument, from my understanding it only applies to instruments which were painted with luminous paint mainly up until the mid 1950’s. During the second world war many instruments were made in both lumious paint and fluorescent paint. Radiation does not apply to fluorescent painted instruments (correct me if I am wrong here!) Yes there may be a risk of radiation from lumious paint but this can easily be resolved by replacing the instrument with one which has been painted in fluorescent paint (examples ASI, large Turn and Slips etc)

I have a large number of post war aircraft instrument panels, many early jets etc and over 300 aircraft instruments. I have quite wisely invested in a geiger counter which can be purchased from ebay for about £70. After checking all my instruments I have only found problems with about 5% the other 95% are absolutley okay. Going onto post war instrumentation there only seems to be problems with some triple brake guages and some MK4 GM compassess (depending on the type of paint) I believe that this problem may have been rectified later on in the 1950’S once the issue of lumious paint became apparant. I have had my instrument panels tested and items such as Sea Hawk, Hunter, Chipmunk, Wessex, Vulcan etc etc are all okay, no problems with radiation. I have even loaned an early jet panel to a museum which is really hot on radiation checks and the panel passed with flying colours and hopefully is now on display.

The point I want to make is yes there may be a hazard out there but don’t start panicing and throwing everything away as it only applies to a few instruments and not everything. Just because your instrument is Second World War does not mean its a radiation hazard, it all comes down to the type of paint it was painted with at the time.

I have been to museums which have the cockpit closed and radiation stickers in every aircraft window. These were for aircraft of the 1980’s, I wonder if this is being done routinely as every aicraft seems to have had the same sticker. I am pretty sure that this is due to a mass panic by some museums who haven’t really been bothered to check each individual instrument. If there is an offending instrument why not take it out and then leave the cockpit open for all to enjoy?

Recently at Shoreham I have met stall holders who on the quiet will take you to their car boot which is full of instruments. They have told me that they are afraid to publicly sell the instruments because of the radiation hazard. I accept this point but the reality is that the instruments they had in the car boot were all free from any radiation hazard. Again this is due to the misunderstanding that people think that all aircraft instruments are a radiation problem, when in fact they are not, only a few are.

The point I want to make is yes, let’s all educate ourselves and be aware of this problem but don’t panic as it does not apply to all instruments! Those who enjoy collecting bits and bobs please continue to do so but get your instruments checked over, if nothing else for piece of mind.

I would be interested in the views of any aircraft technicians or instrument makers, if their are any out there please make your opinion known, your knowledge would be greatley appreciated on this matter for the benefit of all.

To all others out there, if I am wrong on anything please let me know as I wish to mislead no one. Thanks……

Radiation Hazard!

You are not alone in Britain with the radiation problem.

In Canada, at the RCAF Memorial Museum, the Radiation crowd moved in and removed all the instruments from the cockpit of the Halifax, sealed them in steel cans and took them away. The last I heard no one on the Restoration Team knew where they were or what was happening to them!

They removed the top from one of the work benches and took that away also.

There are no plans to make the cockpit accessible to the public, and the amount of radiation that might reach the ground some 20 feet below must have been minimal.

However you cannot reason with them. They sealed of the workshops and everyone was sent home!

Hi all, been away a few days so here we go: I agree in principle of us being made aware of the radiation in instruments etc and yes it needs to be dealt with sharpish. However what I dont like is as I believe its noted before as “the cotton wool state” causing chaos as usual. What needs to be done is this issue dealt with slowly, carefully and properly and not the usual HSE bull in a china shop attitude. I can assure you this is not an ill informed opinion of the HSE but from very bad experiences of dealing with them (But, before those who work for and have worked for those agencies please note the following) NOT all officers of the HSE are complete morons, just a case of the Minority causing all to be tarred with the same brush which can be said for all of society. (Oh and my dad was a MOD H&S officer too)

Also I have experience of Radiation too, I used to transport Radioactive waste and theres more chance of me glowing in the dark from that cr*p than there is from a cockpit, Id say 54 tons is slightly more iffy that a tiny drop of paint.

My final point is this, aslong as the HSE remember that our museums dont have millions of pounds rolling in and that we work on very small budgets and also work very hard to ensure that the visitors are well looked after and more importantly realise that we do our best to ensure EVERYONES safety then we will be fine in the long run, this is the only thing that worries me, is the HSE will come storming in both barrels and the aviation museums will end up with a car park full of visitors saying “Oh they look nice from 1/2 mile away”. Bex

MAM Mig21

As a long term member of the MAM and personally being the person who done the checks for radiation on the Mig21, I can assure you all now that under no circumstances is the Mig out of bounds to the public!!

It is in fact, one of the safest aircraft in our collection and the only reason access to this aircraft would not be allowed would be if it was being worked on and it was seen as being a danger to the public, or, that radiation checks were being done on it at the time.

If, Bri, you wish to sit in the cockpit, by all means come back to the museum and I will personally gladly take you in her myself!

RM

On a visit to the Midland Air Museum, I was informed that it wasn’t possible to get a look at their MiG21 cockpit because the EU had declared the instruments unsafe because of radiation.

Many years ago, I think during WWII, many workers in an American instrument company died of serious radiation poisoning because they were licking the brushes before painting the numbers on the dials. I believe they had cancer of the mouth, which must have been awful.

So don’t criticise H&E too much.

Bri:(

I saw a Mig 21 throttle handle once that was a lovely item but had exposed Radium 226 on the handle part….the issue is important, especially in order to understand the hazards and then put the necessary mitigation to reduce the risk.

Just to return to one of Roy’s points.

As far as I am aware, the legislation is intended to cover museums and companies, and thus for an individual to own such an item is entirely legal.

I guess the problem would come where an individual owned a collection of watches, instruments, or RR Vipers, and then was employed in a capacity which brought him into contact with radiation on a daily basis, such that he was issued with a monitor. Without wearing it all the time, there would be no way of knowing how much radiation he had been subject to.

Anyone know the exact problem with RR Vipers? Having just had two delivered to the museum, I want to add them to our list of ionising materials, AND I want to know how best to preserve them now I have custody.

Bruce

Thorium in casing…just dont cut and adequately mark (ours is), some Avons have Thorium too. Some microscope lens (and other opticals) need checking having Thoriated lenses.

My postings are not intended to annoy HSE individuals, i live in the risk based/mitigated and highly trained world of flight test…..

On a visit to the Midland Air Museum, I was informed that it wasn’t possible to get a look at their MiG21 cockpit because the EU had declared the instruments unsafe because of radiation.

Many years ago, I think during WWII, many workers in an American instrument company died of serious radiation poisoning because they were licking the brushes before painting the numbers on the dials. I believe they had cancer of the mouth, which must have been awful.

So don’t criticise H&E too much.

Bri:(

the licking of the brushes happened in the Uk sadly too..

What this thread has demonstrated is the inability of people to take notice of the core of the thread without getting sidetracked and argumentative…

eheheh this is a common feature of many forums Melv 😉

I was wondering how the H&S regulations come out, if they rely to field experts and listen to all the cathegories involved in their decisions or they just take and go for the tangent, seldomly comin out with silly solutions(that would be something in common with the way things work here)…
Our Health Ministry is not so zealant actually, but this is undoubtely a serious issue.
Now for my personal culture, is there any report of a competent authority about the risks with radium treated instruments?
Are there any other hazardous components that might well receive the same attention in the future?

Cheers

Alex

P.S.
when I look at foreign countries and their strict regulations I always realise what a really (and maybe dangerously) free country we are…

Ruskies Too!

On a visit to the Midland Air Museum, I was informed that it wasn’t possible to get a look at their MiG21 cockpit because the EU had declared the instruments unsafe because of radiation.

Many years ago, I think during WWII, many workers in an American instrument company died of serious radiation poisoning because they were licking the brushes before painting the numbers on the dials. I believe they had cancer of the mouth, which must have been awful.

So don’t criticise H&E too much.

Bri:(

Dangers posed by instruments

Earlier this year I bought an instrument on ebay from a seller aboard. On passing through the shipping port it set off the radiation alarm and was impounded. The ports radiological protection officer sent the following information on this particular Turn and Slip. I have reproduced it below to give some reality to risk posed;-

“Parts of the interior of this dial have been painted with luminescent paint which contains approximately 200 kilo-becquerels of radioisotope Radium – 226″

“The external radiation dose rate at a distance of 10cm from the face of the instrument is 7 microSieverts/Hr. A person remaining at this proximity to the source for 150 hours may receive a dose of up to 1000 microSieverts. This will not result in any form of visible damage or radiation sickness, but in an additional risk of the development of fatal cancer at some point in the future (this risk is estimated to be 1:27000 for this radiation dose).”

“At 2 m from the face of the instrument the external dose emitted will be indistinguishable from that of naturally occurring background radiation.”

“If the glass face is removed or broken, radioactive material may be released, and more serious radioactive contamination may occur”

Not mentioned the above threads but another significant risk may be Aerojumbles:- where I have seen boxes of broken instrument with the bottom of the box visibly covered in the biscuit crumb like particles of the radium painted numbers.

Melv,
Thanks for posting this.
I for one am glad you flagged this up.
People here may chose to pooh-pooh H&S, it’s up to them.
However, THE HSE now have as much power as the Police and the last thing anyone wants is them crawling all over your place of work or your favourite aviation venue.
I shall be doing a bit of digging in the coming weeks.
Thanks again.
Andy

Bruce – re Vipers talk to Newark’s Curator, Mike Smith – 01636 705585; [email]newarkair@onetel.com[/email], as I know that they have identified this as an issue during one of their surveys.

Melvyn you are right about the word ‘some’.

I suppose it’s a bit like some people choosing to drink and drive or use their mobiles whilst driving.

My understanding is that there have already been a couple of instances of problems at UK aviation museums that have been resolved with the museum’s working with HSE to solve the issues.

One case not far from you, related to a cockpit section from a crashed WWII airframe that was contaminated from its damaged instrumentation. This case was used by a representative from the HSE to advise BAPC members of the potential un-anticipated issues that they faced.

In this case what really caused the problem was that visitors could reach out and touch the item. Hence they risked being unwittingly contaminated and could easily ingest contaminated material by licking their fingers.

Everyone needs to take the issue seriously.

Just to return to one of Roy’s points.

As far as I am aware, the legislation is intended to cover museums and companies, and thus for an individual to own such an item is entirely legal.

I guess the problem would come where an individual owned a collection of watches, instruments, or RR Vipers, and then was employed in a capacity which brought him into contact with radiation on a daily basis, such that he was issued with a monitor. Without wearing it all the time, there would be no way of knowing how much radiation he had been subject to.

Anyone know the exact problem with RR Vipers? Having just had two delivered to the museum, I want to add them to our list of ionising materials, AND I want to know how best to preserve them now I have custody.

Bruce

What is now different is that the HSE are now actively starting to implement the regulations.

Exactly.

BAPC have been trying to get this issue addressed for at least 3 or 4 years to my knowledge and their document [that I first saw in 2003] explains the practical application of the legislation and how to become compliant; see the PDF file from the Publications page at the link below.

http://www.bapc.org.uk/

Some museum large, medium and small are already addressing the issue as previously stated see post #31 and have been doing so for several years.

Agreed, but the key word there is “Some”. I am not trying to ruffle the feathers of people that have been aware of this, I am sure there was comment when I was a BAPC member and that is years ago, but if it is going to be enforced then EVERYONE who is involved needs a head’s up.

Don’t shoot the messenger.

(This will no doubt now spawn a digression into the merits of the Miles Messenger, or gun crime in general, if past experience is anything to go by!)

Melvyn your point about divergence is a good one, but with respect however slight the risks involved:

The Ionising Radiation Regulations 1999 (IRR99) and the Radioactive Substances Act 1993 (RSA93) are enshrined in UK law and have been in force for several years.

What is now different is that the HSE are now actively starting to implement the regulations.

BAPC have been trying to get this issue addressed for at least 3 or 4 years to my knowledge and their document [that I first saw in 2003] explains the practical application of the legislation and how to become compliant; see the PDF file from the Publications page at the link below.

http://www.bapc.org.uk/

Some museum large, medium and small are already addressing the issue as previously stated see post #31 and have been doing so for several years.