Duxford Firefly on the move ?

[QUOTE=Mike J]Worthless?[QUOTE]

I do believe that was the word he used. I was quite gobsmacked because i had always assuned that the rarer WWII type, and one equally as popular at airshows when they are flying, would have been quite something of value even when in a dissasembled and unrestored state (much like the one that has left Duxford for Holland).

Still, I guess his comments come from his view as an engineer with a restoration company whose business is to make its money from restoring airframes, and they see it is a much more risky investment – it would be harder to find parts, a bigger job to restore to the air than a Spitfire that they have all the tooling for, and less attractive on the market when complete as it has less “appeal” than a Spitfire. It would (like a Spitfire) likely cost a lot more to restore than they can sell it for when complete, and that margin for loss there is probably higher. So in their eyes, not worth it I guess.That is the impression I got from the chap. Nice guy he was too. Not the sort to talk bull.

However, if someone was to come along with a passion for the Firefly and invest in it for themselves to own and operate, rather than for resale, it’d be a whole different story. That is what’s needed.

Cees I think EN’s point was that from this situation the following will result (WE ASSUME)

1x Historic Spitfire airworthy
1x Firefly airworthy
1x Firefly restored to static.

So from an ‘aircraft preservation’ not ‘Nationality’ point of view this is A Good Thing.

I dont subscribe to the ‘Poor Museum’ comment…. no -one forced them to sell the Spit – and from what I’ve seen they CERTAINLY arent short of cash (and I have had dealings with the Aviodome myself including selling them an aeroplane)

If you wanna blame someone or have a good moan I suggest you start by looking at your own national Museum because from what you’ve said, the sale defies all logic! And yes if I were you I would be very annoyed that the Spit had been sold…. 😉

Not having a go Cees, you know that but just my view…

And in any event, details of the deal are not known yet – maybe you’ll get a Halifax out of it –

TT

(No Teddies or Hadbags :p )

Herman,

Goed idee

Cees

EN830,
Aha! the cat’s out of the bag!! 😮

So a Spitfire is worth a lot of money. So it doesn’t matter if it has a historical value for a country other than the UK. SO if you wave your wallet and shove some bits of scrap aircraft into the general direction of the poor museum involved then there is no other way but to get it out, rip it to bits, replace what’s necessary (destroying some orginality here and there) and get if flying. So, if I give enough money to the long suffering RAF Museum to take Halifax W1048 off their hands so that it can finally be restored in Holland (not exactly where it would belong, but who cares) that would be a win win situation irrespective of the few UK Halifax afficionados would be crying at the gate near Harwich when the lowloaders depart for the Hook?

The result? Museums with wrecked airframes of dubious provenance, but with lots of cash (just a guess) and several squadrons of Spitfire IX’s at airshows where bored people stay away from en masse.

I like it!! 😀 :dev2: :diablo:

Seriously, this is a good discussion. Let’s take it further (without teddies or hadbags) to see what good this will do to preservation.

So, do we need squadrons of Mk IX Spitfires in the air, or is diversity a better option. And what rights do National Museums have?

Cheers

Cees

Cees
Think its time to start a new topic as this is not no longer about the firefly.

Herman

You’re missing the point Cees, a Spitfire especially one with a good covenant is worth a lot of money, probably more than a Firefly. If ARC restore the MkIX back to flying condition, sell it and then utilise the funds to put the Firefly back in the sky, I don’t see anything wrong with that. Though, I am not for one minute, suggesting that is what they intend to do.

See there is an advantage to having 6 fingers on each hand !!!!

EN830,
Aha! the cat’s out of the bag!! 😮

So a Spitfire is worth a lot of money. So it doesn’t matter if it has a historical value for a country other than the UK. SO if you wave your wallet and shove some bits of scrap aircraft into the general direction of the poor museum involved then there is no other way but to get it out, rip it to bits, replace what’s necessary (destroying some orginality here and there) and get if flying. So, if I give enough money to the long suffering RAF Museum to take Halifax W1048 off their hands so that it can finally be restored in Holland (not exactly where it would belong, but who cares) that would be a win win situation irrespective of the few UK Halifax afficionados would be crying at the gate near Harwich when the lowloaders depart for the Hook?

The result? Museums with wrecked airframes of dubious provenance, but with lots of cash (just a guess) and several squadrons of Spitfire IX’s at airshows where bored people stay away from en masse.

I like it!! 😀 :dev2: :diablo:

Seriously, this is a good discussion. Let’s take it further (without teddies or hadbags) to see what good this will do to preservation.

So, do we need squadrons of Mk IX Spitfires in the air, or is diversity a better option. And what rights do National Museums have?

Cheers

Cees

Did not included the one at overloon as it is was a conversion from a MK.XVIII to a MKXIV.

Herman

As far as I know we are just left with 2 spits, 1 static(Soeterberg) and a flyer(MK732).

Herman

Well was five, now down to four, to include also TP263 at Overloon and the substantial recovered crash wreck of MJ874 at Deelen.

Mark

And 1 in the museum in Overloon IIRC

The aviodrome wil go to a civel aircraft theme, so a Firefly does noet really fit in there. And as mentionend before they have a Dutch war Veteran as well. I share Cees his fear, this might go as well. But not only the Fokker but what about all the other items they have in there collection. They have a cold war theme and just recieved a Saab, why as they just want a civel themed museum. It sounds like a contradiction to me.

Herman

We have 3 more Spitfires in Holland, and I’ll be happy to wave them all good bye. Never liked the type, but a wrecked Firefly for a Spitfire, why not both Fireflies ?

BW Roger (IRSH)

As far as I know we are just left with 2 spits, 1 static(Soeterberg) and a flyer(MK732).

Herman

a Spitfire especially one with a good covenant is worth a lot of money, probably more than a Firefly.

I should say so. While at Ardmore last month I was told by an AvSpecs engineer that the two Fireflies they have sitting in a container are worthless, no-one wants them, because they will cost so much to restore and will never get the return value of a Spitfire. Sad, I’d love to see one of them in the air.

…The majority of the visitors don’t even know what a Firefly is. …

Seems to me to be an excellent reason, therefore, to show one in the museum.

Museum’s aren’t there to confirm your prejudices. (That’s Hollywood’s job. 😉 )

As to the rest of the discussion, no comment.

Cheers

I’m sure Ollie Knows the correct number MK12 tsk 😉

Ask ‘im about Blenheims – he’s good on those, go on ask ‘im!

TT

HP57,
You are correct the Mk1X is the most numerous in terms of survivors. I make it 52 examples survivng of.

…or maybe 64.

Mark

Are there now so many Spitfires in Holland….?

Bruce

We have 3 more Spitfires in Holland, and I’ll be happy to wave them all good bye. Never liked the type, but a wrecked Firefly for a Spitfire, why not both Fireflies ?

BW Roger (IRSH)

Another flyable Mk IX? That’s the most common mark these days. If it was another mark oh well. But this is a historic Spit for the Dutch. Not all Spits should end up in the air or overseas you know. The majority of the visitors don’t even know what a Firefly is. Anyway, the deal is done, nothing can be done about it now so let’s see what happens in the near future.

Cees

You’re missing the point Cees, a Spitfire especially one with a good covenant is worth a lot of money, probably more than a Firefly. If ARC restore the MkIX back to flying condition, sell it and then utilise the funds to put the Firefly back in the sky, I don’t see anything wrong with that. Though, I am not for one minute, suggesting that is what they intend to do.

HP57,
You are correct the Mk1X is the most numerous in terms of survivors. I make it 52 examples survivng of

See there is an advantage to having 6 fingers on each hand !!!!

Are there now so many Spitfires in Holland….?

They have been instrumental in seeing a number through to preservation and restoration. MK912, MK959 I can immediately think of. But they are getting short of Spitfires now!

On the other side of the equation, it is a stunning starting point, and will undoubtedly result in a very nice airframe, with a high degree of originality. MK912 is an excellent comparison; restored by the same people, and quite the finest Mk 9 flying today.

Bruce

HP57,
You are correct the Mk1X is the most numerous in terms of survivors. I make it 52 examples survivng of.

Lets see now, ARC acquire a number of Fireflies from Sweden in 2004, they are kept in storage for a short while, one “SE-CAU” is disposed off in a deal that brings a potentially airworthy Spitfire back to the UK. The Dutch get a Firefly to play with and lose a Spitfire, a type which they have several of in any case.

In the meantime ARC restores Dutch Spitfire to fly, sells Spitfire to collector for a nice profit, the profit is pored into the remaining Firefly which also returns to the air.

Sorry am I missing something here, this is a win win situation, right ????? Two airframes returned to the air, a third restored to static display condition.

To me the chance to see a Firefly return to the skies over the UK is great. And if ARC have to do a few deals to get it there, good on them.

Please move on now, there’s nothing else to see here.

Another flyable Mk IX? That’s the most common mark these days. If it was another mark oh well. But this is a historic Spit for the Dutch. Not all Spits should end up in the air or overseas you know. The majority of the visitors don’t even know what a Firefly is. Anyway, the deal is done, nothing can be done about it now so let’s see what happens in the near future.

Cees

Lets see now, ARC acquire a number of Fireflies from Sweden in 2004, they are kept in storage for a short while, one “SE-CAU” is disposed off in a deal that brings a potentially airworthy Spitfire back to the UK. The Dutch get a Firefly to play with and lose a Spitfire, a type which they have several of in any case.

In the meantime ARC restores Dutch Spitfire to fly, sells Spitfire to collector for a nice profit, the profit is pored into the remaining Firefly which also returns to the air.

Sorry am I missing something here, this is a win win situation, right ????? Two airframes returned to the air, a third restored to static display condition.

To me the chance to see a Firefly return to the skies over the UK is great. And if ARC have to do a few deals to get it there, good on them.

Please move on now, there’s nothing else to see here.