PR9

fatnav
Thanks for the gen. To think that a cheapo chinagraph could play such an important role is simply unbelievable. All in the days before GPS of course. Only serious service limitation on chinagraphs as I recall was operation in high temps. They made a real mess in your pocket when used at Idris for instance.

Not only on 9s (or even not only on Canberras), the chinagraph grease pencil may just be the unsung hero of many a successful RAF mission. Used to good effect on our B.6Rs on 51 Sqn (for reasons I somehow can’t recall ;)), as well as helping to raise the ‘accuracy’ on the 8s and (I)6s when using the gunpack . . . .

Wonder if the steeley-eyed wonders of the ‘modern’ FJ fraternity still find them useful? I mean for more than just jotting notes on a kneepad.

.

Hi Les,
I never used chinagraph lines on the nav windows, but we used to use them on the pilots canopy for a couple of reasons. The first was to centre the line of sight for the port facing oblique camera when the wings were level, and the second, more rarely, was as a nav aid. Occasionally we would be tasked to carry out recce runs along a foreign coastline. We had, legally, to stay out of the 12 mile extension of the coast to be in ‘International Airspace’. To achieve this as accurately as possible, we would preplan the operational height which would then be flown on the rad alt. Prior to getting airborne the pilot would sit in his seat, positioned at his normal operating height. Using a graph we had designed, the nav would measure out to port from the aircraft cenre line and place a marker on the ground. The pilot would then draw a horizontal line on the inside of the canopy through the marker. The nav would then draw a horizontal line on the outside of the canopy (directed by the pilot) also to bisect the marker on the ground. When airborne on the mission all the pilot had to do would be to line up the lines on the canopy and ensure they did not overlap the coastline. This ensured that you could be as close to the 12 mile limit without beaking it. Simple and it never went u/s.

Hi Les,’fraid to say the paperworks in…just got back from RIAT where at least half of the enginering team are RAF and are waiting for “the best promotion of all…..Mr” .

Ah! I see. So JPA isn’t getting in the way of your paperwork then. :rolleyes:

Promote to “Mr”? Days to do getting few?

In ‘t old days(TM), we used to say “6 million civvies can’t be wrong.” But when you get out you find that they are!

Anyway, all the luck squire.

.

Hi Les,’fraid to say the paperworks in…just got back from RIAT where at least half of the enginering team are RAF and are waiting for “the best promotion of all…..Mr” .

For jase

Hi sunshine. You have your redundancy options yet?

.

FMk6John
Suspect fatnav was being a tad serious in his post. As jase says, the windows for the nav in the 9 were usually called ‘Day/Night Indicators’ for no other reason than it was a typically RAF thing to do (just as pilots were ‘seat/stick interfaces’, navs were ‘talking ballast’ and AEOs were ‘self-loading ballast’). :rolleyes:

fatnav is right of course when he cites their use and the need for vis-reps. A few I’ve seen in ‘t’ old days’ (TM) also had chinagraph pencil markings on the inside to, I think, help the navs line up the obliques (is this so fatnav?)

Also fatnav, that’s an impressive list of cranberrys you’ve played with, pretty much everything except an 8. Don’t blame you for not playing with the 8, navs didn’t get an ejection seat in those and had to carry a little oxy bottle on the stbd leg of their growbag in case of roll-out – – but they did have a very smart little swivel chair at their map table. 😉

.

The Nav no longer goes through the hatch ,although the points are still on the seat headbox. On the photo you can see the MDC (det cord) running around the edge of the hatch. The Navs call the windows “day and night indicators” as thats all they’re good for.

Thanks for that chaps, most helpful indeed.

Fatnav

My comments on the windows were only echoed from one of the nav’s I spoke to at RIAT, maybe the sun had got to him that day and he wanted to be short and sweet with the chit chat, for any offence I may have caused I appologise.

I didn’t comment on the recce sight as I have been having trouble with my internet connection and it kebt booting me off while typing!, also this is a very amateurish description of the front seat and I welcome experienced Nav’s like your self to give us detailed brakedown as I myself am very interested in the Canberra.

Kindest regards,

John.

Hi John,
I take your point about being somewhat cramped in the nose, but having been fortunate enough to have flown in 8 marks of Canberra (2,4,7,9,15,17,18,22) I wouldn’t have swapped the nav’s position in the 9 for any of the others. Your description of the 2 side windows was a bit harsh; we used to have to produce a visual recce report on low level targets as well as taking photographs, and it was quite surprising how much the nav could see. You also make no mention of the recce sight which gives excellent forward visibility even if only a fairly narrow field of view. It was particularly beneficial to have all your nav kit to hand when climbing out from low level, especially in the case of a weather abort.
The other real benefit is that no PR.9 Nav ever lost an eye because of a bird coming through the nose and taking the nav in the face, unlike the other marks with the Nav laid in the nose.

Apart from some forward movement (about six inches) he is pretty much strapped in for the duration of the flight.

The front seat is not a wonderfull environment to be in, the pilot only has the heating controls so you are at the mercy of his decision, even so with the heating on some front seaters have reported that the temperatures at the feet are still near freezing (not forgetting these planes operate at high altitude).

All the front seaters controls are situated on the front, port and starboard panels, all within arms reach, there is also only two windows by either side of his head measuring about 6″ x 8″ and are commonly refered to as ‘day and night’ indicators as that is all they do.

I have been sat in the front of a PR.9 and the nose was shut, I am 6’3″ and I kid you not there was NO room to move and I take my hat off to those who spent their time in there on operational sorties.

Regards,

John.

Hi Andy,
The nav does not have to unstrap at all in the PR.9, everything is to hand. A slight correction to previous post: in the event of an ejection the hatch above the nav is not blown off, it is frangible (fragile and breakable). The nav would eject straight through it. There are two slight protruberences on the top of the seat headrest that assist in breaking it.

Are all the functions accessable from the seat or does he need to move around within the nose at all?

Hi Andy

The Guy in the front has got an ejection seat it leaves the aircraft through a hatch above that blows out in an ejection

Scott C