Yeager for Legends 07

You’re absolutely right! He zapped it. I’ve got the NASM website showing the same information though, so I’ll try again.
http://www.nasm.si.edu/research/aero/aircraft/NAF-86.htm

Nice job with the explanation, he seems to have come around and has been big about it. The page now begrudgingly accepts the F-86 version of events.

Bruce: That wiki discussion on the Comet is nuts. I can’t wait to see if that story gets published in any way. It’s quite incredible.

We’ve had the Mach 1 discussion before on this forum, and once again I refer you all to the book that discusses this in detail: “Aces Wild – the race for Mach 1” by Al Blackburn. My personal conclusion, based mainly on this book but also on other information, is that Geoge Welch should have received the credit, along with North American, the latter for designing a fully functional aircraft on its own wheels that could take off and land conventionally as well as shoot down MiGs.
It is also my personal opinion that Bell were given vital information from the M.52 project and without it they would clearly have been unable to get past Mach 1.
That’s my two penn’orth!

You’re absolutely right! He zapped it. I’ve got the NASM website showing the same information though, so I’ll try again.
http://www.nasm.si.edu/research/aero/aircraft/NAF-86.htm

There’s a SkyRocket on a stick at my local college 🙂

& a local school is named Joe Walker, my kid will be going there in a couple of years.

The editor was me. I’ve reverted back to the edit I made before, and added a reference (this page: http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/history/q0113.shtml) which will hopefully satisfy our zealous friend.

Nice work Eddie but unless that link is gold plated and signed by God I’d be surprised if he goes for it. :rolleyes:

Interesting stuff on that website however. Nice find.

The editor was me. I’ve reverted back to the edit I made before, and added a reference (this page: http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/history/q0113.shtml) which will hopefully satisfy our zealous friend.

Not me, but it is a forum member!

Looks like we now have ‘reputedly’ for the F86. As it is unlikely ever to be made official, at least not whilst Gen Yeager is alive, that may be the best we can hope for. I will see how one opens a discussion!

The limitations of Wikipedia – go to the discussion on the DH106 Comet page, where some wild assertions were made! There’s a conspiracy theory for you!

Bruce

Well, I believe the F-86 was officially clocked in April of 48. So that’s still many months before the 108 managed it. But again, I don’t have any hard proof, just what I’ve read elsewhere on the internets.

Not me, but it is a forum member!

Looks like we now have ‘reputedly’ for the F86. As it is unlikely ever to be made official, at least not whilst Gen Yeager is alive, that may be the best we can hope for. I will see how one opens a discussion!

The limitations of Wikipedia – go to the discussion on the DH106 Comet page, where some wild assertions were made! There’s a conspiracy theory for you!

Bruce

Hi Bruce, looks like someone (you?) tried to adjust the 108 page to reflect what’s been discussed here – however the page tyrant has reverted back to his original version of the ‘facts’. Reading the History page he even accuses that person of vandalism. 😮

Perhaps a discussion thread on wiki should be created – I would but I don’t honestly know how. I have a very well developed tendency to break such things.

My apologies – I dont know where I was looking!

Certainly, if Wikipedia claim on the F86 page that it was the first aircraft to go supersonic, then it should also be reflected on the 108 page.

Perhaps we should open a discussion on Wikipedia!

Bruce

Actually, it doesnt, it states that the 108 was the first British aircraft to exceed Mach 1.

As the page has no discussion related to it, and there have been very few edits, I dont think the guy who wrote it has any issues!

Bruce

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_DH_108

This is copy and pasted from the page:

“it was the first British aircraft to exceed Mach 1 and also the first jet-powered aircraft in the world to achieve this landmark speed. The earlier aircraft which exceeded the speed of sound, the Bell X-1 and the Douglas Skyrocket, were both rocket-powered. “

If you go to the History for the page you can see an attempt has been made to amend the spurious fact but the gentleman in charge is more than happy to contradict wikipedia on the F-86 apparently.

For what it’s worth this wikipedia page on the DH Swallow claims it was the first jet plane to make Mach 1. The chap apparently in charge of the page refuses to believe otherwise. I don’t have the cold hard facts to prove otherwise but the page for the F-86 states it officially made Mach 1 6 months earlier.

Actually, it doesnt, it states that the 108 was the first British aircraft to exceed Mach 1.

As the page has no discussion related to it, and there have been very few edits, I dont think the guy who wrote it has any issues!

Bruce

It might have something to do with the fact, that the Country of England was basically bankrupt after the war. Money for the testing of radical new designs, was simply not there, so progress was slow….

That doesn’t really explain why swept wing development was not developed during the war.
Money was available as clearly progress was made in that period in other areas – beyond what other nations were developing, Germany included, but the critical design leap that was the swept wing was not developed during this period is still a mystery to me.

I’ve never really understood why the British designers seemed so reticent to embrace swept wings even after the war.

It might have something to do with the fact, that the Country of England was basically bankrupt after the war. Money for the testing of radical new designs, was simply not there, so progress was slow.

England and Germany made the good ole US of A what they are to day. The americans didn´t have a jet engine until the british gave them the drawings. They didn´t have the swept wing until they took it from the germans (along with the axial flow jet). The flying tail as used on the X1, and the Sabre, was a british invention, planned for the Miles M52, given to the americans by the labour government in 1946, without which it is doubtful the X1 would have gone through the sound barrier.

The very design of the Miles M52 was streets ahead of the X1. For one, it was designed to go supersonic using an experimental afterburning Whittle engine, while the X1 was rocket powered from the outset. The M52 was also designed as a lead in to a supersonic fighter, that’s why it was to take off on it’s own, rather than being carried aloft. Whether the M52 could have broken the sound barrier will never be known, because it was cancelled by a bankrupt goverment amidst spiralling costs, but if it had been continued with, it should have been some months ahead of the X1 through the barrier.

British designers were by no means backwards at the time. One only needs to look at Barnes Wallis ideas of a supersonic transport*bomber that he drew in the late 40’s early 50’s. It is all down to a bankrupt country after the end of the war. If they had not been so bad money wise, the brits could have been ways ahead of the americans.

One only needs to remember the Canadian Avro Arrow and the british TSR2 to see how the americans deal with designs that look like they are going to exceed their own capabilities.

I do know what your saying but the time lines are about the same, So North American had all the Data but Bell didn’t. When Bell took one look at the F-86 in early 47 they must have thought why bother.
Regards Phil.

Well I think in this instance Bell were using the data derived from the British designs developed during the war, which were arguably less advanced than their German counterparts.
Whereas NA amended their F-86 design using the newly acquired German technology, namely the swept wings.
I guess Bell were reticent about changing their plans so drastically after they’d already spent so much time on it, whereas the F-86 was a fresh design.
Remember that the design the Bell X-1 was based on was purely intended to achieve Mach 1, which might give you a lot more confidence in the project. Whereas the F-86 success in this area was somewhat by accident rather than sole intention.

I’ve never really understood why the British designers seemed so reticent to embrace swept wings even after the war.

True, but progress was very fast back then. Some aircraft went from drawing board to production in less than a year. And even then the F-86 had the benefit of all that newly acquired post war know-how that made it’s way to the States – a serious advantage over anything designed during the war.

I do know what your saying but the time lines are about the same, So North American had all the Data but Bell didn’t. When Bell took one look at the F-86 in early 47 they must have thought why bother.
Regards Phil.

First flight X1 19 Jan 46, F-86 1 oct 47. I think the Disign for the Sabre started in 44, Two years is not great deal of differance in my book, one went on to be built in the hundreds, the other went to a museum to claim at best a dodgy place in history
phil.

True, but progress was very fast back then. Some aircraft went from drawing board to production in less than a year. And even then the F-86 had the benefit of all that newly acquired post war know-how that made it’s way to the States – a serious advantage over anything designed during the war.

Not since the UK historical epic…Breaking the Sound Barrier...:D

I was thinking on the lines of that other hysterical US masterpeace “U-571”
about how you captured Enigma.:D if you keep making films like that people might start to believe it. But not on this side of the pond old chap:D
Phil

To be fair, the Bell X-1 is from the previous generation, Ministry specification E.24/43 (1942) I believe. 😀

First flight X1 19 Jan 46, F-86 1 oct 47. I think the Disign for the Sabre started in 44, Two years is not great deal of differance in my book, one went on to be built in the hundreds, the other went to a museum to claim at best a dodgy place in history
phil.

I think thats the book I read it in, Bwt way since when did any American film
have more than 30% truth in it:D
Phil

Not since the UK historical epic…Breaking the Sound Barrier...:D