Old RAF Station Crests-Here and abroad.

I’ve got loads of them (GVIR and EIIR), Gary, what ones are you after and how big do you need them? (I do have some scans of orignals with the Queens siggy on too). Please PM with wish list and I’ll see what I can do.

Hi

I’ve just scrolled down this far and read what I think is the whole thread. I am very into RAF Heraldry and always trying to get hold of good copies of original badges – and the ones with the Queen’s siggy are best of all. Can you tell me what you have?

Bumping this one up.

I would be grateful if members could tell me what Unit Badges, if any, were applicable to the following organizations.

R.A.F. Cardington, No. 2 Reception Centre, Cardington.

R.A.F. Ternhill, No. 15 Personnel Transit Centre.

R.A.F. Penhros 9 B&GS

14 O.T.U. R.A.F. Cottesmore.

I would be grateful if members could tell me what Unit Badges, if any, were applicable to the following organizations.

R.A.F. Cardington, No. 2 Reception Centre, Cardington.

R.A.F. Ternhill, No. 15 Personnel Transit Centre.

R.A.F. Penhros 9 B&GS

14 O.T.U. R.A.F. Cottesmore.

Roy, it was that I was alluding to when I mentioned I thought you may have had a look for something. Is that going on the nose? If it does, it’ll look well. A fine bit of research and well done. now if only our small fragment of info would come through….

Yes Chris – that’ll be going on the nose. The only method I can use though is to create a decal much like the old airfix ones we had as kids. I’ve heard rumours that these can fade but can’t see an alternative method. It seems that most artwork on aircraft was hand painted and I’m not that good!!

Richie… the graphic they sent me is only about 530 pixels wide but looks surprisingly good blown up to A4 size.

I’ve got a test piece of alloy currently in etch primer which will get a colour coat, a few decals and then different clear coats to see how the decals behave. I’ve seen stickers and transfers literally melt before your eyes when you apply a clear coat or varnish. Scary!!

Roy.

Just to confirm the terminology, All RAF formation insignia are defined as Badges (including the main RAF one) with the exception of the ones which are defined as Coat of Arms (which are used by RAFC Cranwell, CFS and the Department of Air Warfare (uses the old School of Flying one)).

Hi Chris – The sea hawk has consumed a lot of time and a great many beer vouchers. I have enjoyed rebuilding her immensely though and made countless new friends along the way. I can recommend it!

My telling off was quite tongue in cheek. If my failing memory serves, it was Jerry Shore at the Fleet Air Arm records office. Sadly (for us) Jerry has now finally retired. Nice people there, very helpful and very friendly. Oh, and they did send me a lovely jpeg of the 802 sqdn badge for use on my sea hawk nose. You can see it here: http://wv838.com/802.jpg

Roy.

Roy

Thats a very nice NAS Squadron Badge, how big is the copy that you got sent?

Richie

Roy, it was that I was alluding to when I mentioned I thought you may have had a look for something. Is that going on the nose? If it does, it’ll look well. A fine bit of research and well done. now if only our small fragment of info would come through….

Hi Chris – The sea hawk has consumed a lot of time and a great many beer vouchers. I have enjoyed rebuilding her immensely though and made countless new friends along the way. I can recommend it!

My telling off was quite tongue in cheek. If my failing memory serves, it was Jerry Shore at the Fleet Air Arm records office. Sadly (for us) Jerry has now finally retired. Nice people there, very helpful and very friendly. Oh, and they did send me a lovely jpeg of the 802 sqdn badge for use on my sea hawk nose. You can see it here: http://wv838.com/802.jpg

Roy.

OOPPS Department! I am now aware that they are badges and not crests, although I always thought that a unit had a badge and a station had crest. Must leaf through a book on heraldry to find the true definition so I don’t drop another one like that! Thanks AgCat/Bigvern.

Vern.
Thanks for your info/advice. I’ve made a note of the address and other items you mention and willact accordingly. We have found that it’s just that the two badges will begin to round the illustrations up nicely. The reason I mentioned/asked about your poster was for the reasons you gave in your reply. Most comprehensive. Cheers.

WV838.
I’m still waiting to hear back from the contact name I was given regarding our own query, although the exact location of the person concerned is unclear. I assume it will be a similar location to which Vern is referring – dunno until I hear anything! I was thinking whether you had contacted someone regarding badges, given your project. I had a browse over your web site yesterday and I must say very well done. It’s certainly bigger than anything I would ever have the room, or indeed funding for. Out of interest, just how much of a ‘telling off’ did the RN Records people give you? I’m starting to worry now in case my query was inappropriately worded!

Garyshack.
Did you manage to mail the address I gave you in a PM? He mailed back to me and said ‘yes – he’ll help in anyway he can’ [paraphrase but that’s the gist of it]

Chris

Sorry to nit-pick, but they are Badges, not crests!

You’re not nit-picking – I got a stern telling off by the RN Records office for calling them a crest. Luckily, I escaped the 20 lashes normally dished out for such a crime.

Roy.

Hi AgCat, My apologies for the wrong terminology. It’s just that my father and myself have always called them crests. Cheers. Gary

Yep, they are correctly defined as Badges (Though they are called the unit crest by most servicemen, which does help separate the design from the other unofficial unit badges that you can find. Saying that most airmen until AP 3003 was released didn’t know that the design of the badge was controlled in the way that it was. My current unit lost full station status in 2005 and the OC wanted to change the words on the Station Badge from RAF to RRH, (Check out the ASACS page on the RAF web site if you don’t know what RRH means) That was until I told her that she could not (with the AP3003 open on the correct page and my finger on the paragraph)).

BADGES – NOT CRESTS

Sorry to nit-pick, but they are Badges, not crests! Big Vern has it all in his post of 24th June.

It looks like I have started something eh?! My dad says he has a photograph of him standing by the gates of RAF Fassberg and behind him is a sign with some sort of crest. On the photo the crest is indistinguishable but there is an outline, any idea’s anyone? There is a possibility that it could be the crest of 2 Group? Any info gratefully received.
Many thanks once again to all that have sent me info, either privately or on this forum.
Gary

WV. I’ll pop something here or PM you when something arrives. This is a big learning curve for both 1Group and myself The e-mail address I was passed was given to me privately so it is probably inappropriate I give it out on a public forum. I’m not hiding anything, just not betraying a trust.

Very many thanks Chris – would love to hear what you can uncover.

Roy.

RAF CRESTS

WV. I’ll pop something here or PM you when something arrives. This is a big learning curve for both 1Group and myself The e-mail address I was passed was given to me privately so it is probably inappropriate I give it out on a public forum. I’m not hiding anything, just not betraying a trust. However, we are trying to find out if obscure stations (Ashbourne and Darley Moor) definitely NEVER did have crests and also how much the license is for black and white reproduction is for inclusion a commercial book.

From what I understand so far, if it’s private/academic/not-for-profit research, then the use is usually free. Need some info on this but still awaiting a reply!

Vern, that’s a really interesting remark. I knew that there were criteria laid down regarding publication and of course, the Royal Ascent part but this remark about 617 is really interesting. Also, I find you comment about posters quite illuminating. I would have thought (clearly I’m on the curve here!) that a poster, unless you are actually selling them, would not qualify as ‘profit-making’ exercise, as they are simply there to promote an event/attraction – or is that the trigger for a fee? I.e, it’s not personal/academic/not-for-profit etc. Any advice willingly & gratefully received!

Chris

Chris

My poster is for sale (its a wall poster / print of aircraft that flew from a base that has just closed, not an advert), hence I did have to pay a fee. If your doing a book you will need a Copyright Licence from DPA MoD IPR and if its for sale they will charge you, If its non profit, then it is free, However I do believe you will still need a licence (The HMSO cLink on-line licance does not cover MoD stuff). I’ve dealt with MoD IPR a couple of times and had no problems (they do the licences for MoD photos, extracts from AP’s and Unit Crests). Contact details below

Crown Copyright Administrator
IPR-Copyright Unit
POPLAR 2 #2218
Defence Procurement Agency
MOD Abbey Wood
Bristol
BS34 8JH
Tel: 0117 913 2862
Fax: 0117 913 2930
E-mail: [email]IPR-CU@dpa.mod.uk[/email]

Gary

It may be worth going to the source for the crests that you don’t have (it will most likely cost, but you will be able to most likely get full sized copies of the signed originals of all of the crests that you need and the ones that you already have. The originals are bigger than A4 sized).
Extract form College of Arms Web Site –

c) Inspector of Royal Air Force Badges

The Inspectorate was established in 1917. The current holder is Peter Gwynn-Jones, Garter King of Arms, appointed in 1996. The Inspector provides advice on all heraldic matters pertaining to the RAF, such as Squadron and Station Badges.

An archive of all official paintings is held at the College although this is not open to the public. Copy paintings of original badges may be commissioned on payment of a fee. Alternatively coloured photocopies of badges may be requested by letter after payment of a search fee of £20 (cheques to be made payable to The College of Arms).

Routine enquiries should be addressed directly to:

HQ PTC (LON)
Bldg 263
RAF Bentley Priory
Stanmore
Middlesex
HA7 3HH

As for the criteria for issue of a RAF crest, this information is from AP 3003 – A Brief History of the Royal Air Force.

All official insignia and badges in the RAF are strictly controlled by the Inspector of RAF Badges, an official of the College of Arms. All RAF Formations whether classified as operational or not can apply for the grant of the grant of a badge (The crest is granted to the Unit by the Sovereign, not the RAF).

The following provisions however have to be met: –

The unit must have its own separate establishment.

The unit must not number below 75 personnel

The Unit must have been in existence for 5 years and expect to continue for another 5, with the exception of having made some conspicuous contribution to the honour of the RAF. (Thus how the Dams Raid got 617 Squadron a unit crest within months of its formation)

However I’ve seen these rules bent on at least 3 occasions in my service career. The first two were Signals Units in the Falklands during 1989 (7 SU on Byron Heights and 751 SU on Mount Alice) which had a total of 34 service personnel on each unit. However both units did an exception job in very astute conditions, plus where very good at giving high ranking guests a good party. The other unit was a UK radar unit (144 SU) that had only 63 personnel on its books when it got its crest in 1993/4. However I think that unit had a replacement radar running concurrently (awaiting transfer from the Manufacture, which was a bit prolonged) that operated as 144 SU (Designate). Hence the Personnel establishment for both units came out at over 75 personnel.

Hope this is of help

Jeepers – badges are more complex than I thought.

Many thanks for all the info though guys, and Chris – if you do turn anything up, I’d love to know about it.

Roy.

WV. I’ll pop something here or PM you when something arrives. This is a big learning curve for both 1Group and myself The e-mail address I was passed was given to me privately so it is probably inappropriate I give it out on a public forum. I’m not hiding anything, just not betraying a trust. However, we are trying to find out if obscure stations (Ashbourne and Darley Moor) definitely NEVER did have crests and also how much the lincense is for black and white reproduction is for inclusion a commercial book.

From what I understand so far, if it’s private/academic/not-for-profit research, then the use is usually free. Need sone info on this but still awaiting a reply!

There are rules laid down for the issue of Unit crests, a minimum length of definite unit life span being one of them (5 Years is the figure off the top of my head), plus a number of strict criteria that the badge design has to meet, including a vetting by the College of Heralds and of course the OK of the Monarch. The only one that I know of that managed to get past the College of Heralds despite their major reservations with the design and Motto was 617 Squadron’s and that was because the King had chose the design and the Motto in the first place. As for using Station Crests on Commercial Publications, yes it does cost money. It cost me £50 to use a Station Crest on a 1000 off production run on a poster I did last year (via MoD IPR at DPA Abbey Wood).

Vern, that’s a really interesting remark. I knew that there were criteria laid down regarding publication and of course, the Royal Ascent part but this remark about 617 is really interesting. Also, I find you comment about posters quite illuminating. I would have thought (clearly I’m on the curve here!) that a poster, unless you are actually selling them, would not qualify as ‘profit-making’ exercise, as they are simply there to promote an event/attraction – or is that the trigger for a fee? I.e, it’s not personal/academic/not-for-profit etc. Any advice willingly & gratefully received!

Chris

Just for anybody thats interested here are the crests for Middle Wallop and Khormaksar on Mugs from the same E-bay shop as the Swinderby cup. They do a RAF West Raynham one as well, Now (in best Will Smith accent), ‘I’ve just got to have myself one of these!’

Hi Phillip,
Many, Many thanks for your all your help. I am very grateful. It’s a shame however that most of the crests are not available. I will try and get RAF Middle Wallop and Khormaksar as soon as I can. I did see the mugs advertised on Ebay and did get a number for my parents, great value.
Once again my sincerest of thanks,
Gary

However, Units without crests (number of personnel on the unit is another rule that will allow your unit to be issued with a crest or not) are allowed to have a Unit crest based on their Command Crest, hence very small units like Donna Nook and Holbeach unit crests have the Strike Command Design and Motto on thier unit crest.