Aviation Archeology in the UK?

Permits

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Discussing recent media interest in excavations with a pal who works for Scottish Heritage, he let slip his colleagues in English Heritage are putting pressure on the MoD to impose further restrictions on excavations by designating crash sites as being of historical value. Apparently, there have already been meetings between the Air Historical Branch and EH on this topic. Cannot confirm this, but sounds plausible.

Interesting! I had got the impression that EH had lost interest in Crash sites as there was no funding to do anything about recording them properly? BAAC members have been filling in site reports for them for a while to help build a database – well we should have been and I know mine are overdue before anyone reminds me! 😉 So this would be a bit of biting the hand that feeds them :confused: – Face it the MOD rarely know where the sites are until we tell them! so EH won’t be getting much out of them.

As for the refusal case that I mentioned, I have now had a chat with Innsworth & basically with it being a post war crash there is much more documentation available to them, including detailed report on what was (and sadly not) recovered of the unfortunate pilot and their decision was based on this. They did not have details as to the nature of the crash or the type of terrain, so this was not taken into account – they could have asked me though 🙁

I have been now asked to provide written details of our research and survey of the site and they will take this into account and reconsider – which I have done and await their decision. I would like to point out though that if I thought for a moment that there was any realistic possibility of finding any significant remains of the pilot on the site I would not be taking this course of action & would have accepted their decision.

I will report in due course as to the result – don’t hold your breath though, it seems that the dept dealing with permits is severly understaffed and no doubt others will be experiencing delays as well – I have still heard nothing about the other two permits I have applied for, at the beggining of the year, other than confirmation they have been received and are being dealt with.

Just retnd from my first trip to France of the year 🙂 to find the first reply to the three permit applications – REFUSED! 😡 – It is a site that has already been excavated, but we have found a significant contact that has been overlooked where one of the engines (stbd) impacted.

I applied in January & it has taken four months for Innsworth simply state that althought the majority of the pilots remians were recovered at the time they have found evidence to suggest that some may still be present – He has a known grave and I am sure any family members still around will not take kindly to such an admission!

The impact was at a shallow angle on high ground – the aircraft was scattered over a wide area – along with the unfortunate pilot and only the engines penetrated the ground and then only to a few feet – so the chance of any such remains being present is IMO very very slim – But that is not the point – the pilot was to all intents and purposes recovered at the time – this was post war, so no hurried wartime recovery here – looks like Innsworth have finally come up with a reason to refuse permits wholsale? as this criteria would obviously apply to just about any site where any of the crew were killed in the crash? 🙁

Before we get on to the rights and wrongs of recovering crashed remains, I would like to point out that my Grandfather is missing in action (at sea, 1940) so I do have a personal insight into the issues involved + I am regularly in contact with relatives associated with the sites we excavate and this has always resulted in positive correspondance.

I feel this could have major implications for our hobby and I would be very interested to hear how other applications have faired.

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Discussing recent media interest in excavations with a pal who works for Scottish Heritage, he let slip his colleagues in English Heritage are putting pressure on the MoD to impose further restrictions on excavations by designating crash sites as being of historical value. Apparently, there have already been meetings between the Air Historical Branch and EH on this topic. Cannot confirm this, but sounds plausible.

Colin thanks for your reply; I have an eye witness to the removal of the engine, he clearly remembers it hanging from a JCB, do you know any of the “individuals” who might have dug this site ; did they have permission? Do you have any info on the A/C ,ie date crashed, fate of the crew

Hi Stuart, you are talking about the ME110 which crashed by the railway line I assume? if so we did not get the engine out but there were surrius reports the engine was excavated at a later date by a group of individuals, but as far as I know they did not get anything from the dig.
we only had a couple of very small remains of moulton Ali for a days digging very little survived.

Colin

Colin, Colin, Colin? (did you get through all right sir?)

All the recovered items went to Millom in Cumbria, its almost a year since I last saw the items so I can’t comment on current condition.

The aircraft dug by TT was left, there was less metal there and more corrosion in the shape of the original metal, if we had tried to lift it all we would have had was a pile of corrosion. We then did dig the second aircraft after TT had left and got plenty of good bits off that. Most of those are also at Millom.

Hi all,

Apart from the recent Time Team Invader recovery, have there been any activities to recover wrecks in the UK? Nick, Merlin??

Cheers

Cees

where is the tail section and engines they recoverd now? Did they get the rest of it out after time team left?

At least I am not alone in that view, I would prefer it if everything was above board but when the goal posts get moved so far people will stop playing by the rules.

With the increasing amount of reluctance to say yes to digs I can see a return to the cowboy days of the 70s.
Already I have a feeling that ex dig parts being sold on are being passed off as non crash salvage. Unless the part has an aircraft serial number on it (very unlikely) the provenance is impossible to determine.

permmision is refused on the grounds that we cannot locate one of the airmans graves in the USA, he was in the Madingly cemetry untill 1948 then taken back to the USA at the familys request and due to a fire in the US records we cannot locate the grave so no dig !

May be worth you contacting the US authorities to see if they have actually any objection to the excavation – under the circumstances I would doubt it – UK MOD are only acting as agents in the case of US aircraft, but seem to need reminding of this occasionally!!! We had a similar problem at the early stages of the TT dig as we had not located one grave. We wondered whether this was a problem and managed to ascertain that the US authorities had no objections at all and had communicated this to the MOD months earlier, even though the MOD were still witholding a permit! It was only when confronted with this information that the MOD then admitted that the problem was in fact because they didnt know how to proceed due to the site being a SSSI. It seems that the MOD had just discovered that they should have not been issuing permits for such sites until English Nature had issued their own permit to the group – red tape tying up more red tape IMO :confused:

Colin, could you refresh my memory, as to what A/C it was that was dug by your group in Ramsden ; as you probably remember I owned the field for about 10 years ,but that was after 2 seperate digs were undertaken, on one ocassion an engine was removed; is that with you at the fort? When I did make enquiries locally the only record of a downed plane was in Swan lane Wickford, although I’ve spoken to long time residents from the area ,no one seems to remember it; could the one from Ramsden be the same one ,(if it had carried on a bit further it would have ended up in Swan lane) I seem to remember it was a Heinkel

Hi Nick, we have had the same problem that is we want to excavate an aircraft we excavated in the 1970s and want to go back and get out all the items we could not take with us at the time.
We excavated so much of this aircraft we did not have the time or money to shift it and were to return the following year. now we want to go ant retrive the items we rolled back in the hole and permmision is refused on the grounds that we cannot locate one of the airmans graves in the USA, he was in the Madingly cemetry untill 1948 then taken back to the USA at the familys request and due to a fire in the US records we cannot locate the grave so no dig !

First Permit refused

I forgot to mention one civilian (1935) and a prototype still on charge of the maker, which dont need permits!!! :dev2:

However seriously – Just retnd from my first trip to France of the year 🙂 to find the first reply to the three permit applications – REFUSED! 😡 – It is a site that has already been excavated, but we have found a significant contact that has been overlooked where one of the engines (stbd) impacted.

I applied in January & it has taken four months for Innsworth simply state that althought the majority of the pilots remians were recovered at the time they have found evidence to suggest that some may still be present – He has a known grave and I am sure any family members still around will not take kindly to such an admission!

The impact was at a shallow angle on high ground – the aircraft was scattered over a wide area – along with the unfortunate pilot and only the engines penetrated the ground and then only to a few feet – so the chance of any such remains being present is IMO very very slim – But that is not the point – the pilot was to all intents and purposes recovered at the time – this was post war, so no hurried wartime recovery here – looks like Innsworth have finally come up with a reason to refuse permits wholsale? as this criteria would obviously apply to just about any site where any of the crew were killed in the crash? 🙁

Before we get on to the rights and wrongs of recovering crashed remains, I would like to point out that my Grandfather is missing in action (at sea, 1940) so I do have a personal insight into the issues involved + I am regularly in contact with relatives associated with the sites we excavate and this has always resulted in positive correspondance.

I feel this could have major implications for our hobby and I would be very interested to hear how other applications have faired.

Three-

part timer! We have four in at Innsworth!

:p

TT

Digs?

Hi – Three digs last year – All have resulted in extra paperwork re identity / weapons etc 🙁 & in light of one group’s problems after a dig was prematurely featured on the web, I’m afraid I am not updating the website / making details public until all sorted out.

Also Three permit applications in for this year – So Far! :dev2:

The various groups are all quitely getting on digging up aircraft. I guess many will end up on the net sooner or later.

There’s the Channel 5 Hurricane recovery (well documented on here). I heard of a successful application to recover a “Messerschmitt” somewhere in Essex this year. Other than that you’ll need one of the amateur aviation archaeologists to pipe up.

Also, it’s pedantry really, but the British spelling of archaeology is with an “a”. It might help with forum searches (I think Google automatically accounts for such variations).