The difference between a P47D razorback and the P47G

I wrote:

and XN923 wrote:

…..which made me realise I had not made myself clear:-) The P47G was not a later version/improvement on the D. It was an early-model, Razorback D (a D-10 to be precise) built by Curtiss rather than Republic.(in the same way that the difference between a P51B and a P51C is simply one of where it was built). The P47 was undoubtedly improved over time with the later, Republic-built, bubbletop D-25, -27, -30 etc. However Curtiss production of P47s was terminated before the various “improvements” came on line and there is no “P47G” (i.e. Curtiss-built) equivalent of these models.

NiallC

My bad. I assumed (without checking) that the G was a later model on a direct line of continuation from the D – Closter’s comments are therefore no doubt about early and later ‘D’ models.

I wrote:

Theoretically there is no difference – the Ds were built by Republic, the G’s by Curtiss. There were some minor differences between the 5 production blocks as there were with the Ds, but, other than these minor changes over time to equipment etc. the G is identical. I don’t think Gs ever carried the underwing pylons, but then, these aircraft were never used operationally and perhaps pylons were fitted to Ds after manufacture.

and XN923 wrote:

In any case, I got the impression that many improvements had been made between D and G model – though perhaps the increase in visibility was dramatic enough to help pilots get the upper hand where previously they had struggled.

…..which made me realise I had not made myself clear:-) The P47G was not a later version/improvement on the D. It was an early-model, Razorback D (a D-10 to be precise) built by Curtiss rather than Republic.(in the same way that the difference between a P51B and a P51C is simply one of where it was built). The P47 was undoubtedly improved over time with the later, Republic-built, bubbletop D-25, -27, -30 etc. However Curtiss production of P47s was terminated before the various “improvements” came on line and there is no “P47G” (i.e. Curtiss-built) equivalent of these models.

NiallC

Malcolm,

I agree with you on those points, and the “G” model despite its lack of combat role does have unique history to tell itself.

regards

Mark P

Malcolm I’m not sure what your point is?

The “G” is supposedly not historically important itself?? due to problems in manufacturing quality, yet its not appropriate to display it in the colours of a “D”?

I think you missed my point – I wasn’t saying that the P47G was not historically significant. What I was saying was that it would be nice to see it displayed as it really was – a P47G, not repainted to masquerade as a phony P47D (I am not even suggesting that this might happen). It is an historic artefact in its own right, and doesn’t need a fake scheme to enhance it, the fact is that its significance lies in it being a P47G.

Yes I know all the arguments – the owner/owners have the right to paint it in any scheme they like; whatever brings the crowds to airshows is great because it encourages preservation etc. etc. That’s a whole can of worms I really don’t want to open. But as a personal aside it is nice to see an aircraft restored to one of the schemes it actually carried rather than just being repainted in a scheme that it never carried, but chosen because it is “famous”.

And I am notcriticising the BoB Memorial Flight as its purpose is to show its aircraft in a variety of schemes as a memorial.

The big difference between the ‘Razorback’ and the ‘Low back’…

…in today’s terms – you can carry a passenger.

I might be wrong but I have no recall of seeing a ‘Lowback’ with a jumpseat.

Ray Stutsman and ‘Little friend’, 2nd August 1985 and for good measure a shot of the original ‘Little Demon’.

Mark

Malcolm I’m not sure what your point is?

The “G” is supposedly not historically important itself?? due to problems in manufacturing quality, yet its not appropriate to display it in the colours of a “D”?

If the G is a Curtiss built D with only the cockpit paint being the identifiable difference its still an original WW2 P47 razor back Thunderbolt and I see no problem in putting it into combat colours even if it didnt fly in combat itself?

There are many P51’s flying in combat colours that never flew operationally, the same is true of many B25Js and N’s flying the warbird circuit?

If a warbird collector chooses to buy such an aircraft and display it in more colourful or “type representative colours” that really up to him, its his money, and while most “Warbird” collectors dont want to historically compromise their pride and joy too much, but they dont have the same ‘heritage” obligations as a National Collection? or Museum?

In fact there are many “mascarading” aircraft in Public and National Collections in any case.

Many warbirds go through various ID’s with a coat of paint and changes of owners in any case, much as is done with the BBMF Lancaster regularly, it creates the variety and interest along the airshow fence.

In regard to swapping a P47G for a Hurricane, again that would seem to be the owners perrogative, and it might simply be a fact a “new toy” or acquiring old “favourite”, I wish I had such problems to deal with!

regards

Mark Pilkington

I hope that the TFC P47G is painted as it should be which is as a State side based training aircraft rather than as a P47D in combat markings. If the latter was to happen it would be unfortunate as the training markings make it a rarity while there are true combat Jugs on the circuits.

This is the paint job the 47 has worn had for many years!

www.warbirdregistry.org/p47registry/images/p47-4225068-a.jpg

T J

Back on topic, does anyone know the difference between a P47D razorback and the P47G? Can’t wait to see one in the UK, especially as all the other P47’s around have the bubble canopy, just like when P51 Princess Liz first flew, never thought i’d see a razorback Mustang

As I said on another thread. The P47G was the version of the P47D Razorback that was built by Curtiss.

Curtiss’ production standards were very bad, the USAAF rejected the G for combat service and the just over 300 built were relegated to training duties in the States. The only real difference between the G and the D was that the cockpit interior was painted Interior Green rather than the standard Dark Green used on the D.

The most interesting variant of the G was the TP-47G – a purpose built two-seater. Only 2 were built. In the ETO some P47Ds that were war weary were converted by depot and base personnel. IIRC the TP-47G was the only purpose built two seater Jug.

I hope that the TFC P47G is painted as it should be which is as a State side based training aircraft rather than as a P47D in combat markings. If the latter was to happen it would be unfortunate as the training markings make it a rarity while there are true combat Jugs on the circuits.

From ‘America’s Hundred thousand’ by Francis Dean, some random comments on the P-47:

Luftwaffe Gen. Adolf Galland, after flying the P-47, said he felt the cockpit was big enough to get up and walk around in.
Fifth air force personnel appraised the P-47 thusly: It was no good as a combat aircraft-it did not carry enough fuel, took up too much runway on takeoff (actually a P-47 will become airborne before a P-51!), it had no maneuverability, would not pull out of a dive, had a weak landing gear, and used an unreliable engine (the P & W R-2800).
One german pilot flew a captured P-47…he did’nt like it…..too big an airplane and a huge cockpit with everything out of reach.
Pilot comment: Not a dogfighter, best as a fighter bomber.
A pilot who flew a P-47D-16 model said it was 50 miles an hour slower than his previous P-47 model due to the large and cumbersome wing pylons for drop tanks/bombs that the factory mounted on it.

Mark

They also had lots of technical troubles when the P-47 started being used from England just like the P-51 and P-38.

A now deceased ‘Jug’ pilot once told me that conditions were so different to those encountered in the States that the pilots themselves just weren’t used to seeing such weather as we have here in glorious Blighty 😉 Atcham was the base used to get the green pilots used to the ETO and the methods to use, some came over with no idea how to fly on instruments, not great considering the few days of clear weather we have every year!

I agree with Moggy about the use of the ‘Boom and Zoom’ attack, the P-47 was no dogfighter as many Spit jockeys found out in ‘play fights’ over England, many ending up with a wrecked ‘Jug’ in a hole in the ground.

Tom

The “G” is fairly rare, as only 354 were built by Curtiss-Wright at their Buffalo, New York factory.
That compared with 12,608 of the Republic built “D”s.

I’ve never seen a “Razorback” Thunderbolt fly, I hope to see it in the air soon.

I’d guess a lot of the ‘improvement’ could be due to tactics.

Much like the F2B was slaughtered when originally flown bomber-style, but became very effective once it was used like a fighter, I could see a P47 being handed to somebody brought up on cut and thrust dogfighting being a liability.

However, once ‘boom and zoom’ tactics are employed ….

Moggy

Theoretically there is no difference – the Ds were built by Republic, the G’s by Curtiss. There were some minor differences between the 5 production blocks as there were with the Ds, but, other than these minor changes over time to equipment etc. the G is identical. I don’t think Gs ever carried the underwing pylons, but then, these airraft were never used operationally and perhaps pylons were fitted to Ds after manufacture.

NiallC

This surprises me as in ‘The Big Show’, the first US squadron that Closterman encounters is flying ‘Razorback’ P47s, and the impression he has is that neither pilots nor aircraft are up to tackling German fighters, while after the benefit of some experience and better aircraft, their performance improves dramatically. I don’t have the book to hand but I’m sure he suggests that the aircraft have problems and that the later models offer a big improvement. I dare say a lot of this is anecdotal on Colster’s part, but he spends a page or two lamenting the shortcomings of the ‘razorback’ (which he reveals is thus named for its unhappy resemblence to a pig as much as for the sharpness of its dorsal ridge).

In any case, I got the impression that many improvements had been made between D and G model – though perhaps the increase in visibility was dramatic enough to help pilots get the upper hand where previously they had struggled.

Theoretically there is no difference – the Ds were built by Republic, the G’s by Curtiss. There were some minor differences between the 5 production blocks as there were with the Ds, but, other than these minor changes over time to equipment etc. the G is identical. I don’t think Gs ever carried the underwing pylons, but then, these airraft were never used operationally and perhaps pylons were fitted to Ds after manufacture.

NiallC