ME-262 Air to Air Kills

There is a German jet / Meteor connection, although the types never met.

Australian RAFVR pilot FAO ‘Tony’ Gaze in 610 Sqn he shot down a V-1 and an Me262, and switching to 41 Sqn he shared in the kill of a Ar234. (Flying Spitfires I believe.)

AFTER that he switched to 616 Sqn as a Sqn Ldr ranked Flight Commander flying Meteor Mk.III fighters before VE Day; so Tony had an unrivalled ‘contact’ with a variety of the W.W.II jets in an operational environment.

I know Hornchurch was relying on memory and was also ‘under the influence’ but, having just completed some detailed research into 616 Squadron’s Meteor operations, I’d like to correct one or two points before they join the rest of the myths.

The 616 squadron detachment which operated from B.58 Melsbroek, near Brussels, arrived there on 4 February 1945, with four Meteor IIIs. The Squadron Operations Record Book (ORB) does not mention the mark of Meteor but quotes serial numbers and code letters and a typo (EE225 ‘P’ instead of EE235 ‘P’) has led earlier researchers to assume that one of the four Meteors was a Mark I. There is a splendid IWM photo of the squadron’s aircraft taken at Manston in January 1945 – just before the four aircraft were flown to Colerne to be painted white and in the foreground is EE235 ‘P’ – clearly a Mark III. These four Mk.IIIs were Welland engined – and therefore had no great advantage over the earlier Mk.Is and were not flown on operations. They flew training exercises, usually at 3,000 feet, on fixed routes to familiarise Allied aircrew and particularly anti-aircraft gunners with the jets. On 29 March the four white Meteors flew to a new base, B.77 Gilze-Rijen and were joined there at the end of the month, by 17 more Meteor IIIs of 616 Squadron which flew out from Andrews field. These 17 aircraft were Derwent-engined Meteor IIIs – a much superior beast – and these were the aircraft which saw action. The four white-painted Meteor IIIs flew back to the UK on 9 April. Hornchurch’s recollections of the Fi156’s destruction are confirmed by the squadron records but there is no mention of the encounter with Fw190s and the bounce by Spits; I’d be interested to knowwhere it originated. The latter type of incident was very common in 2ndTAF but I doubt if it happened to Meteors – every small operational incident is mentioned in the ORB – but not this one.

On the otherside of the coin. How many Me-262’s fell to Allied Fighters?

I don’t remember where I read it but didn’t Ivan Koyedub (2x Hero of the Soviet Union) down an Me-262 flown by some swanky German ace? If anyone can remember more info about that I for one would be interested to hear it.

Meteors in Belgium, no contact with 262’s

IIRC, Meteors weren’t allowed to cross the channel.

I remember trying to do a little basic research about the Gloster Meteor’s role on the continent before May 8th 1945.

At that (research) time, I’d just bought several of the newly released Tamiya 1/48th scale injection moulded kits & wanted to find out more, on top of what I already knew about Meteors.

Going by memory now & without any reference material to hand (plus a few beers later!!!)……..616 Squadron sent a detachment of aircraft across to the continent (based in Belgium, whilst the war in the E.T.O. was still in progress) to evaluate their prowess under favourable conditions.

Most were the early F.3 variant – but at least two were the even earlier F.1’s with the flatter, more upright windscreens (with the EE serial code No’s).
They were painted in an overall white distemper finish – this was supposedly to help Allied air & ground forces gain instant recognition.

There are only TWO recorded instances where the Gloster Meteor came into contact with the Luftwaffe.

On the first, whilst patrolling, a flight of Four (if memory serves correct), were positioning themselves to attack a larger force of (already identified) F.W. 190’s when at the crucial moment, just imminent to the attack – the Meteors themselves were bounced + attacked by a flight of Spitfires…..the white distemper & countless air recognition classes apparently having no effect on the Spitfire jockeys – therby causing the cursing Meatbox pilots to break off.

On the second incident, several Meteors came across a hapless F.W.156 (Fieseler Storch) and whilst trying to shoot it down, they found it most difficult.
This was because of the speed differential – combined with the fact that the
combat took place at tree-top level – PLUS, coupled with the F.W.156’s pilot’s skill level (later acknowleged by the guys who filed their combat reports)……all of these factors led to the eventual outcome – that the badly damaged F.W.156 was force landed…… & the occupants fled across the ground, as the Meteor’s took turns, in strafing the 156 into matchwood !!!

Pete Truman – hope this answers your question about why THEY (262/Meatbox) never met in combat.
dhfan – I seem to recall that 6/8 Meteors were based in Belgium between late March ’45 & May 8th (’45).

Seem to recall that Urban Drew’s famous 262 double kill (whilst flying his famous yellow nosed P.51 “Detroit Miss”) still exists on gun/cine camera film.

As I understand it he is saying 85 fighter kills…most Me262 kills were bombers

Around 85 *claims* against US fighters, a quick hand count from a table (pgs. 240-247 in “Me 262 Combat Diary” by Foreman and Harvey). But, from comparisons the book gives between Allied losses and German jet claims, the real US fighter losses to 262’s were certainly many fewer than 85, seemingly a pretty small fraction of that. Me-262 claims against RAF fighters are harder to count. There are another around 35 claims v Spitfires and Mosquito but most of those were recon planes not fighters. I left out claims against Lightnings for the same reason, the USAAF recorded only one known P-38 loss to an Me-262 but a number of F-5’s (recon Lightnings). Two Yak-9’s were the only Soviet fighters claimed by Me-262’s.

Joe

IIRC, Meteors weren’t allowed to cross the channel.

Were’nt there a number of 262 kills by RAF Tempests, and why did a confrontation never occur with Meteors, was this just by accident or design.

As I understand it he is saying 85 fighter kills…most Me262 kills were bombers

Dave

So, By looks of it, Me-262s didn`t really scored that 735 Kills(Claimed) although the figure of just 85 kills seem preety low.

By any chance somebody have Gun Camera Footage of kills scored by Me-262s? there must be as i have seen atleast one kill (B-24) footage.

Regards

Syed Shais Ali

Many 262 kills were vs. Allied fighters.

Heinz Bar, probably the best Me262 Experten, claimed 18 daylight victories whilst flying the Me262, of which 16 were confirmed. Of those 18 claimed, only 2 were B-24’s and 3 were B-26’s. All the rest were fighters, 5 x P-51’s and 8 x P-47’s.

As often I think depends on what we mean by “kills”, recognized claims (by the claiming side) or planes really shot down. In general LW claiming accuracy at the 262’s heyday (large numbers of claims from late ’44, though first ones in mid ’44) was not good. Their previous system which had yielded quite accurate claims at times earlier in the war had deteriorated seriously.

Foreman/Harvey “Me 262 Combat Diary” give 616 claims (not all “confirmed”) by 262’s but reviewing the general comparisons of Allied losses to the claims incident by incident in the book the real kills must have been much lower. Especially against Allied fighters 262 claims seem to check out at a pretty low rate. For example the book gives around 85 claims against USAAF fighters (much smaller number against Brit and Soviet fighters, ie. bulk of 262 claims were against recon and bomber types), and a much smaller number check out per info in that book*. USAAF fighters downed in excess of 100 Me-262’s (losses ca. 3/4 of claims, typical of late war Allied *fighter* [not bomber!], claims). The actual ratio seems to have been highly in favor of the piston fighters. Now they had advantages of numbers and long range persistance (to hang around Me-262 fields waiting for them to return short of fuel) but fuel persistance was a technical virtue of piston planes in v. 1945 jets just playing to their strength; and more highly trained Allied pilots on average too of course by then. Ratio-wise RAF did similarly, didn’t have as many opportunities as USAAF.

On Bar per same source: 3/19/45 2 P-51’s claimed by Bar 2 total by jets, one possible loss to jets; 3/24 1 P-51 by Bar 3 by jets, ? losses to jets; 3/27 3 P-47’s by Bar, 5 by jets no losses to jets; 4/4 1 P-51 by Bar 2 by jets no losses to jets; 4/18 2 P-47’s by Bar 1 loss to jets; 4/19 2 P-51 by Bar, 2 total losses of USAAF not known to be to jets; 4/27; 2 P-47’s by Bar 5 by jets no losses to jets; 1 P-47 by Bar ? losses to jets.

*which is probably not complete, but also other books I know don’t detail many USAAF fighter losses to 262’s, doesn’t seem it was anything like 85.

Joe

Hmmm … that’s a fair number isn’t it. What period are we talking about here, ie. when were the first 262’s operational? And were the night fighter variants ever operational or just prototype?

I suppose by 1945 the 262’s were operating in a very “target rich” environment and there was plenty to shoot at, despite their operating problems.

Could i also ask if the 262 had any air – air kills against fighters,i would guess the huge majority were against the bombers.

Many 262 kills were vs. Allied fighters.

Heinz Bar, probably the best Me262 Experten, claimed 18 daylight victories whilst flying the Me262, of which 16 were confirmed. Of those 18 claimed, only 2 were B-24’s and 3 were B-26’s. All the rest were fighters, 5 x P-51’s and 8 x P-47’s.

Could i also ask if the 262 had any air – air kills against fighters,i would guess the huge majority were against the bombers.