Wellington HE226 on Conistone Moor

Old aircraft wrecks in the UK

Just found this thread,my comments on this hobby having been involved on for over 30 years mainly as a researcher for the BAAC.(Gary Brindle)

Pillaging of sites especially exposed ones will always take place,mostly small items by casual visitors.A few people are more organised and will target sites with the intention of selling items ,unless a serial is stamped on the part..very unlikely…it would be very difficult to prove origin .

Some people recover parts with licence and then sadly have no storage facility inside, the parts continue to corrode example , the Wellington and Hudson parts in the long grass at Baxterley airstrip in the Midlands.

Ill informed comment in the press can ruin the chance of getting land owners permission for a properly run recovery. The most common tactic is to spread the story that the site is a war grave,this then creates such an emotive reaction that the landowner just says no. In my local area of the Scottish Highlands a substantial area of Lancaster wreckage has been neglected on the moorland 8 miles north of Kingussie for this reason. Indeed one collector claims it as his wreckage because he has visited it many times !

In my view it is time for a list of sites with visible wreckage to be collated by an organisation BAAC perhaps and then a priority of recovery efforts made.

The idea of leaving sites as a memorial is just nonsense, to the uninformed they are just a pile of scrap.Actual memorials on site will remain rare because generally the cost is to high to cover all known sites.

Hi everyone – just retnd from 3 weeks in france 🙂 & catching up – the website that the original info was taken from was mine & I am the author of the page mentioned – in this area there are still many such “High Ground Wreck” sites with varying amounts of wreckage left. HE226 has to my knowledge been subject to two licenced excavations by different groups and many parts have been recovered and preserved. I have visited the site and attended one of the excavations, but have no artefacts from it. It is an unusual site in that the the level of destruction during the crash of the aircraft components is quite shocking – the ground here has virtually no top soil & is a solid limestone pavement a few centimeters down. So although there does appear to be a substantial amount of wreckage, what is left is very badly shattered.

A memorial at each site would be nice and I totally agree with the final sentiment above – however this would be very costly / time consuming for an individual or small group, so I feel that the remaining wreckage may be seen as a memorial + the virtual memorials in the form of the web pages I create – which has obviously worked in this case, bringing this site and the fate of these airmen to peoples attention.

Sadly I feel I cannot publish exact locations on my site and only give out such information by request (though I obviously included enough to allow this one to be located with a little detective map work) as not everyone is as responcible or respectful as the original poster of this thread. I have seen parts taken illegally fron wrecksites featured on my website appear on ebay & have been involved with attempts to persuade ebay to stop listing these items – however many parts offered for sale are actually from legally excavated sites and offered by well known aviation enthusiasts – I personally feel this is morally wrong, but other people obviously have other opinions / priorities 🙁

Nick, thanks for providing the website, I aim to visit somemore of the sites next time i return to Yorkshire. I may contact you for specific locations if this is ok? Feel free top use any of these images for your site if you wish.

best regards, Steve

Crew of HE 226 Remembered

If lost air crew are on board then there is no chance of you getting a licence. But if all the crew have known graves … then you might still get a licence.

Even through all or different views on this subject one thing is quite clear.

GONE BUT NOT FORGOTTEN

Hi everyone – just retnd from 3 weeks in france 🙂 & catching up – the website that the original info was taken from was mine & I am the author of the page mentioned – in this area there are still many such “High Ground Wreck” sites with varying amounts of wreckage left. HE226 has to my knowledge been subject to two licenced excavations by different groups and many parts have been recovered and preserved. I have visited the site and attended one of the excavations, but have no artefacts from it. It is an unusual site in that the the level of destruction during the crash of the aircraft components is quite shocking – the ground here has virtually no top soil & is a solid limestone pavement a few centimeters down. So although there does appear to be a substantial amount of wreckage, what is left is very badly shattered.

A memorial at each site would be nice and I totally agree with the final sentiment above – however this would be very costly / time consuming for an individual or small group, so I feel that the remaining wreckage may be seen as a memorial + the virtual memorials in the form of the web pages I create – which has obviously worked in this case, bringing this site and the fate of these airmen to peoples attention.

Sadly I feel I cannot publish exact locations on my site and only give out such information by request (though I obviously included enough to allow this one to be located with a little detective map work) as not everyone is as responcible or respectful as the original poster of this thread. I have seen parts taken illegally fron wrecksites featured on my website appear on ebay & have been involved with attempts to persuade ebay to stop listing these items – however many parts offered for sale are actually from legally excavated sites and offered by well known aviation enthusiasts – I personally feel this is morally wrong, but other people obviously have other opinions / priorities 🙁

if lost air crew are still at the site then its up to the families if they are removed and what should happen to the airframes even if this means destroying them.their wishes have to be respected.

If lost air crew are on board then there is no chance of you getting a licence. But if all the crew have known graves then as long as the MOD have it on their books exactly what was put in the casket then you might still get a licence.

I dont actually know but I think it is this way so that groups can go and dig crashed aircraft and if more remains are found then the site has to be cleared of remains.

If I was to go to a site dig and no remains were found then surely there is either no remains left and the salvage team did a very good job or there was very little left in the aircraft at the time anyway.

As to relatives well we usually have had contact with some of the relaties involved and they are very keen to get involved and sometimes ask if the site is to be excavated. Just think about if you were to find some personal belonging and it was in reasonable condition which does happen and this gets returned to flying officer bloggs sister or brother. I have heard of this happen and have heard of how overcome with emotion the person has been. This has got to be reward enough in doing the dig in the first case.

Another point is that there are a great many unlawful digs that go on or should it be called looting. Whereby people either visit the site and remove items from the site without a licence, Which is illegal. Or people go to the site specially to dig for hidden parts hoping to find “treasure” often called treasure hunters in our circles. In some places this is really big money whereby you could get your hands on a genuine Battle of Britain artefact.

What would you rather have looters digging up the aircraft and making money on them or lawful excavations carried out carefully and well planned and getting sites clean up.

I must now add that I dont like the fact that people sell what they find I would rather see it sit in the back of my shed than sell anything. Obviously I would rather see the items in a museum but museum space is limited and wouldnt want to take just anything.

laviticus, to answer your question on the German crews found. I had a contact in Berlin due to a specific Crew recovery from a Luftwaffe aircraft which had ditched in the sea and the answer I got was that Berlin would not put up any money for the recovery of the aircraft ( would have only been one or two of the better parts and the tail section if still intact) or for the recovery of the bodies but once recover they would make arrangements for the crew to return to germany.

This is the answer I got BUT I believe the remains could end up at Cannock Chase where Axis war graves are now in the UK.

Dave, I can totally understand you views on this but for me it is very simply I do it because I enjoy the research and the possibility of finding a really good find at the site. Ok it is part of the job that sometimes remains are found but I would rather I found them than some other group that wouldnt report the finding to the police. I wont go through the details because I dont know the state of play with libel and criminal proceedings but there was a group down south as they say that allegedly dug up a crew member removed items from his person and then reburied him.

Now I dont know what the full or truthfull story is but this has been talked about for some time so I am inclined to think it true.

I think people think they will get into trouble because they unearthed a body but the fact is that if you report the fact once you have cleared the remains away by means of the county coroner then you may well be able to finish the dig. I dont know if this always happens but it does seem likely that you would be able to continue.

But it is the simple fact that many of these guys stories would have never been told if it was for the researchers finding these aircraft. Not only does their story get told about the accident that killed them but with photos from various sources you can actually put a face to the person and sometimes even get their service records or some funny stories from an old mate or 2.

Even through all or different views on this subject one thing is quite clear.

I feel our problem is ,here we all feel passionate about aircraft and feel strongly about the men who flew them, especially the ones who didnt make it home.
So people who don’t share our views cannot understand the enormity of their actions when they disturb air crash remains.I think each site has to be delt with differently, if lost air crew are still at the site then its up to the families if they are removed and what should happen to the airframes even if this means destroying them.their wishes have to be respected.

I could understand it if it were in steep hilly bush country where no-one could see it or get to it (like a few NZ wrecks), but when people can go online and get directions and then stroll along for a visit, hmmm. (No offence intended Steve, not having a dig at you)

non taken, its interesting though that the wreckage left where it is had a much more profound effect on me than if i’d seen it at a museum. It isn’t quite a quick stroll to find but its not out of the reach of any occasional hill walker. I do see your point about the macarbe element of it all.

Steve.

Firstly, I take it the crew’s remains are no longer there. Less than ten days before wars end as well.

I presume they are no longer there, I have no evidence to suggest either way though.

If you’re worried about theft from the site perhaps it wasn’t such a good idea to highlight the location? Not criticising, just a thought.

The site is well known locally and thanks to the net nationally. It could be found by anyone with a little determination. Maybe I say this with a little naivety but on a forum like this I would hope to be able to share this information with the confidence that it will be used in a positive way.

best regards, Steve

Its nice to get the opinions of the aviation archaeologists on our forum,i find the level headed approach of finding the missing crews so they can receive a correct burial commendable .The question we all need to ask our selves is if that was our father,son, ect, would we find it comforting that they were back with their families and not in the machines that killed them.One question if i may what happens when the digs uncover Luftwaffe’s crew,are remains shipped home or interred in this country.

Merlin3945

Well said, I cannot agree more, speaking from the Dutch side of Aviation Archeology.

Some of my additions:

Quote:
If anyone is thinking how horrible it is to go digging up these old aircraft please remember all the hours and hundreds of pounds that goes into the research and excavation of these aircraft and if it were not for these people then the story of the crew and the aircraft may be lost in time forever. Also remember the persons who dig up the aircraft are 9 out of 10 times the people who raise the memorials to the crew.
Unquote

My view:
People who have negative feelings agains this are mis-informed and it would be rewarding to make some effort in contacting serious groups and get some inside information instead of forming a self-coloured opinion.

Quote
The people who carry out excavations legally do so as little more than a hobby and interest much like any one would who digs their garden or collects model trains and as such should be congratulated on the great job that MOST of them do.
Unquote

My view:
These people also do a lot of work the official authorities should be doing such as bringing back missing crewmembers missing for sixty years.

Quote
The minority of people make a bad name for the majority of those who do it by the book.
Unquote

My view:
Unfortunately yes

Again, well said Merlin

Cheers

Cees

I find these crash sites that are still there in the open for all to visit very bizarre I’m afraid. It does not seem right to me. The idea that a crashed plane just lies in someone’s paddock does not sit right with me – I cannot get my head around it actualy.

I mean, I find much like if there had been a car accident where everyone onboard was killed, taken away and buried, but the authorities have just gone away and left the burned out, mashed up car wreck on the side of the road because they’ve never bothered clearing up the mess. Why not?

After the war much time and money was spent on finding and relocating bodies, scrapping weaponry and rebuilding society ans structures. But why did no-one take the time to pick up this sort of wreckage? Surely local people wouldn’t have preferred to have it there, reminding them of the war everytime they saw it? I mean, that place, and other’s I’ve seen photos of, are clearly not inaccessable. Someone could have done something. Why didn’t they? Why were these wrecks not removed and melted down, or whatever?

I could understand it if it were in steep hilly bush country where no-one could see it or get to it (like a few NZ wrecks), but when people can go online and get directions and then stroll along for a visit, hmmm. (No offence intended Steve, not having a dig at you)

I simply don’t understand and would very much be interested in opinions and explanations toget my head around this bizarre act.

I am not saying it is wrong or anything, just I feel uneasy about the fact that it seems to me these sites are an unfinished job. The fact that they are slowly rotting and rusting over the years that they litter the countryside, and that some people may come along and further desicrate the wreckage, steal from it, and in the ebay age even profit from it,

Personally, I think it’s time to bring such wreckage in from the hilltops. Surely that is the respectful thing to do. Those men who died shouldn’t be remembered simply for the crash that killed them. That’s macabre.

As for museums getting such wrecks, I seriously doubt any museum would warrant wasting display space for a wreck as badly damaged as that shown, as there is little reconisable there for the average museum goer to relate to. But at least if such wreckage was put into proper museum storage in boxes for future reference and maybe use in restorations, it’d be better for the world at large, would it not?

Incidentally our group are doing an excavation on a wellington this coming weekend. I will let you know how it went when we have finished next week and hopefully some photos too.

This is only the first stage. The dig by hand.

Also if anyone needs more information or any help with getting involve in and projects then why not contact The British Aviation Archaeological Council.

Contact details are on their website.

http://www.aviationarchaeology.org.uk/

The topic of grave robbing is an extremely emotive one. It is a reprehensible act but does happen when unscrupulous ‘archaeologists’ carry out unauthorised digs and are then only too happy to tell people about human remains placed in jars. The full weight of the Law should be brought against them.

Since first starting out on aircraft digs it has been a sharp learning curve for all within our group and indeed we are still learning.

Firstly Kev I could say out of all the people I have talked to I have never heard anyone having “Human Remains” in jars and if you know of anyone that has talked about this then I would suggest you let the police and indeed the MOD police know of their identity.

I only know of a well documented case which is abroad where a rear gunners spine sits on a guys fireplace. The law has been made aware of this and apparently there is nothing they can do about it. This was the situation as I knew of it but am happy to be corrected if anyone knows of any other details.

I have to agree that the FULL weight of the law should be carried out on anyone that takes parts of aircraft without a licence and that anyone not following procedure on a licenced dig should be prosecuted.

In my experiance it appears to be very hard for the MOD to prosecute people for anything along this nature as they have to prove wrong doing and even when they do people seem to get away with a lot.

Here is a brief description of what you would have to do to get a licence as I understand it.

1) Locate the target aircraft.
2) Carry out research to establish beyond doubt the ID of the aircraft.
3) Ask landowners permission.
4) Get paperwork from MOD for licence application.
4a) At this point consider if there was a bombload on board and that ALL crew have known graves.
5) Fill out application including as much additional info as possible.
6) File any reports such as the county archaeologists report and site safety report by landowner if required by the MOD.
7) Await confirmation or rejection of licence.
8) carry out excavation
8a) consider where the items will go after the dig whether to private collection of public museum who actually want the items. Our local the NMS museum of flight will only accept items that can be cared for in a resonable way ie they are not rusting or falling to pieces.consider what it is the museum can provide in terms of care for the items or even if after say 5 years they should or will be scrapped as having no place anymore in the collection.
9) file an end of excavation report into your findings and so the MOD can strike of the parts to your ownership as they are crown property until you file this report. This also lets the MOD consider if what you have is sensative material or something they would like to retain. Mostly you will receive full ownership.

Notes:-

if all crew are accounted for ie. have a known grave you will likely be granted a licence unless not enough of the body was recovered. In this case it is not impossible that you will get a licence but unlikely.

If some crew are not accounted for then it is unlikely you would get a licence.

If the bombload was onboard when it crashed you will be unlikely to get a licence.

If there are known graves then the crashsite is NOT a war grave as all the men have graves.

If you find human remains or suspect that you have found human remains you must stop the dig and inform local police NOT MOD police. the local police should bring the coroner out with them. Ask for an incident number to protect yourself of any further questions from MOD or Police this can then be used as a reference of you reporting remains.

If the above happens phone the Police right away while you are at site if possible but defiantely on the same day.

If you find ordanance then the same procedure as above applies but the police should bring out the EOD team with them.

As everyone will be aware on finding ordanace this should be given up to the police and the EOD team. I think they are evermore worried about these crash sites being used as a souce of explosives for the use in terrorism so we are quite lucky to still be able to do these digs.

If anyone is thinking how horrible it is to go digging up these old aircraft please remember all the hours and hundreds of pounds that goes into the research and excavation of these aircraft and if it were not for these people then the story of the crew and the aircraft may be lost in time forever. Also remember the persons who dig up the aircraft are 9 out of 10 times the people who raise the memorials to the crew.

The people who carry out excavations legally do so as little more than a hobby and interest much like any one would who digs their garden or collects model trains and as such should be congratulated on the great job that MOST of them do.

The minority of people make a bad name for the majority of those who do it by the book.

The answer, Hatton, is probably ‘none’, for a number of reasons:

They’re usually pre-occupied with the job of crewing the aircraft (with all that entails, navigation, weather monitoring, timings etc), and unless they are looking for a particular feature of which they have knowledge (in this case aircraft wreckage), will pass over the sight none the wiser.

I presume that there were thousands of similar wrecks on high ground, the same high ground which is flown over by todays crews. Particularly for those aircrew operating at low level, they most certainly will be ‘heads out’ to avoid the ground, obstuctions, and looking for the next nav feature. They will acutally probably come close to dozens of crash sites on one sortie alone.

However, if they were to be passed a six figure OS grid reference, they may be up to the challenge (particularly helicopter crews, who have the luxury of coming to a halt)) of finding the wreckage as a turning/drop off/pick up point, and your post could be used as a point of interest in the crew brief.

Hope this is of interest, and thanks for the thread.

Perhaps we could suggest that, say, 28 Squadron at RAF Benson could be contacted as using this as a suitable tactical ‘pickup’ exercise for the Merlin helicopters?

As far as a memorial to the crew is concerned, the BRDC who operate Silverstone, might be persuaded to locate something there to reflect their heritage. Also, hopefully, Texantomcat might read this and offer a home at Sywell Aviation Museum if a location for parts is required?

Waddayathink guys and gals ???

Steve.

Firstly, I take it the crew’s remains are no longer there. Less than ten days before wars end as well.

If you’re worried about theft from the site perhaps it wasn’t such a good idea to highlight the location? Not criticising, just a thought.

Laviticus and Landyman.

If there’s no Memorial, why not erect one? There are many people on this forum who would be only too happy to advise. I think you only need the consent of the landowner and then find the wherewithal to erect a suitable Memorial, maybe a cairn surmounted by aircraft parts? Propellor hub maybe? it would be nice to try and contact members of the families of the crew where possible.

As for placing the wreckage in a Museum, personally, I would leave it where it is.

The topic of grave robbing is an extremely emotive one. It is a reprehensible act but does happen when unscrupulous ‘archaeologists’ carry out unauthorised digs and are then only too happy to tell people about human remains placed in jars. The full weight of the Law should be brought against them.

Regards,

kev35

I hope my comments about current crews not realising what lies on the moors below was not taken as a critisism. I just find it interesting that history and events lies unknown to so many.

No critisism implied Hatton, you’ve done well by highlighting a crash sight such as this. There are plenty of modern day serving aircrew who would be interested in viewing the crash site as part of their route. All they need is to have the grid, and the availability of training hours to fly pass the location. Please PM me if you want to take my suggestion any further.

But by placing crashed air frames in a museum we all get to see them not the lucky few who have trudged across fell and dale to get there it would also stop plundering.But the question remains what about the air crew who’s remains from such sights were never removed.I read some were that a person dug up a fighter pilot who’s body would have been too difficult to retrieve during the war,this person removed certain items of clothing and personal affects,this i found distressing .NO RESPECT.

it is sad that there seems to be no memorial to this crew there, and that the ‘grave robber’ is allowed to remove parts of the aircraft without getting prosecuted, wouldn’t it be better the remains of the wellington should be removed and placed in a museum rather than leave them to the vultures!!!, if this is done i will help with this venture if i can, i have a four wheel drive that could be used if need be., also what would it take to have a memorial there?, would it need to go through the RAF and local authority?.

Greg

I would imagine that the permission would be needed from the RAF and the landowners whose land you would have to cross to reach it. You could get there by 4×4 and walk the last few yards.

I’m not sure whether I would advocate placing it in a museum, the wreckage where it is now has a certian power that would perhaps be lost in a museum. A memorial and footpath (there isn’t either at present) would be nice but might lead to widespread theft of items.

The answer, Hatton, is probably ‘none’, for a number of reasons:

They’re usually pre-occupied with the job of crewing the aircraft (with all that entails, navigation, weather monitoring, timings etc), and unless they are looking for a particular feature of which they have knowledge (in this case aircraft wreckage), will pass over the sight none the wiser.

I presume that there were thousands of similar wrecks on high ground, the same high ground which is flown over by todays crews. Particularly for those aircrew operating at low level, they most certainly will be ‘heads out’ to avoid the ground, obstuctions, and looking for the next nav feature. They will acutally probably come close to dozens of crash sites on one sortie alone.

However, if they were to be passed a six figure OS grid reference, they may be up to the challenge (particularly helicopter crews, who have the luxury of coming to a halt)) of finding the wreckage as a turning/drop off/pick up point, and your post could be used as a point of interest in the crew brief.

Hope this is of interest, and thanks for the thread.

thanks for the replies, was gettign worried that on a historic aviation forum that this wasn’t of any interest.

I hope my comments about current crews not realising what lies on the moors below was not taken as a critisism. I just find it interesting that history and events lies unknown to so many.

it is sad that there seems to be no memorial to this crew there, and that the ‘grave robber’ is allowed to remove parts of the aircraft without getting prosecuted, wouldn’t it be better the remains of the wellington should be removed and placed in a museum rather than leave them to the vultures!!!, if this is done i will help with this venture if i can, i have a four wheel drive that could be used if need be., also what would it take to have a memorial there?, would it need to go through the RAF and local authority?.

Greg

An emotive subject i thought about submitting a thread about this very topic.Is it “grave robbing”if the crews remains have been removed, how can you stop people removing bits of air frame.Why no memorials to lost crew(you get one if john lennon took a leak on a wall some where).My jury’s still out on this one.