Phantom XV408 at Fairford

Graham- The Duxford F-86A belongs to the IWM and was acquired in an exchange for
a Meteor F.4 from Planes of Fame Chino .

Thanks for updating me David.
Cheers.

Graham, I’m pretty astounded by your remarks and lack of knowledge of the facts surrounding the above…. As a long-time member of the Midland Air Museum, and working on my project “XF382” Hawker Hunter, can I take this opportunity to correct you, or enlighten you?

Regarding the F-86 move from Duxford – it is on loan to the Midland Air Museum from the IWM @ Duxford (who as has been pointed out, own it). So no alleged breach there ok? (That was a serious allegation you made)…

Regarding the USAF Museum’s policies – they do in fact loan airframes out to private museums – the Midland Air Museum being one of many… On our books, we have T-33 / Mystere / Hunter XF382 all on loan from the USAF Museum, and that’s just the ones I know of as fact…. The Hunter has an intriguing reason for being on loan from the USAF, as it was built in 1956 with funding from the USA Military Aid Programme which was their financial assistance to the UK to enable it to re-equip it’s forces post-WW2. Built at Coventry by AWA, it flew it’s entire career with the RAF, and once retired, officially belonged to the USA Goverment, which meant it could not be offered up for disposal by the usual MOD means, as the MOD didn’t own it. So the Museum acquired it via the USAF Museum, who remain as custodians of all ex-MAP funded airframes in the UK. So there’s the correct background to the policy of USAF owned airframes being on loan to private Museums…..

I’ll get off my soapbox now, but felt it right to defend the Museum which I have worked at for the last 11 years, and who always do things right I might add… Amateurs only by virtue, professional in conduct….

Pete Buckingham
Hunter XF382 Groundcrew
Midland Air Museum

Pete,
Steady on chap. Apologies for the mis-understanding of the F-86 move. I’d got my info from another thread on this forum. Guess that was incorrect then!
When you have been faced with as many brick walls as I have when trying to construct a largely USAF-orientated museum then the slightest hint of a breach of the USAFM rules makes me see red.
As for my lack of knowledge, well….believe me I’m pretty well up to speed with the USAF’s Mutual Defence Assistance Programme (MDAP) so I’m aware of most of the issues. I think you’ll find that all your quoted MDAP airframes (T-33/Mystere etc…) were acquired before the ‘private’ museum rule came into effect (post 9/11). Suggest you check up on that as that is what I was told by Gen. Metcalf at the USAFM. Incidentally, Flixton’s Hunter is an MDAP airframe.

Again, likewise for us at the Bentwaters ‘Cold War’ Museum. We’ve been trying for nearly three years to acquire an F-4, including one of a number of ex-Spanish AF F-4Cs that are just rotting away at Torrejon. These aircraft are mostly ex-81st TFW Bentwaters-based machines so our interest in acquiring one is understandable. The annoying part about out attempts to bring one back to the UK is that, even though we had the go-ahead from the Spanish AF, we were blocked by the USAF Museum using the usual excuse about loaning airframes to ‘private’ museums etc. The Spanish AF themselves have loaned several of these F-4s to privately-run museums and institutions in Spain so quite clearly it is one rule for one and one rule for another. The move of the USAFM-owned F-86A from Duxford to the MAM is also a breach of this rule.
I’m getting a little tired of the secrecy involved in the ‘purchase’ of XV408. Surely if it was all above board there wouldn’t be any need for the secrecy?
Regards.

Graham Haynes
Bentwaters ‘Cold War’ Museum

Graham, I’m pretty astounded by your remarks and lack of knowledge of the facts surrounding the above…. As a long-time member of the Midland Air Museum, and working on my project “XF382” Hawker Hunter, can I take this opportunity to correct you, or enlighten you?

Regarding the F-86 move from Duxford – it is on loan to the Midland Air Museum from the IWM @ Duxford (who as has been pointed out, own it). So no alleged breach there ok? (That was a serious allegation you made)…

Regarding the USAF Museum’s policies – they do in fact loan airframes out to private museums – the Midland Air Museum being one of many… On our books, we have T-33 / Mystere / Hunter XF382 all on loan from the USAF Museum, and that’s just the ones I know of as fact…. The Hunter has an intriguing reason for being on loan from the USAF, as it was built in 1956 with funding from the USA Military Aid Programme which was their financial assistance to the UK to enable it to re-equip it’s forces post-WW2. Built at Coventry by AWA, it flew it’s entire career with the RAF, and once retired, officially belonged to the USA Goverment, which meant it could not be offered up for disposal by the usual MOD means, as the MOD didn’t own it. So the Museum acquired it via the USAF Museum, who remain as custodians of all ex-MAP funded airframes in the UK. So there’s the correct background to the policy of USAF owned airframes being on loan to private Museums…..

I’ll get off my soapbox now, but felt it right to defend the Museum which I have worked at for the last 11 years, and who always do things right I might add… Amateurs only by virtue, professional in conduct….

Pete Buckingham
Hunter XF382 Groundcrew
Midland Air Museum

Graham- The Duxford F-86A belongs to the IWM and was acquired in an exchange for
a Meteor F.4 from Planes of Fame Chino .

When we say ‘well cared for’ does that mean in a hangar or other suitable building?
If she has been acquired it will make the position of the Yorkshire Air Museum interesting in their bids to acquire an example.

Again, likewise for us at the Bentwaters ‘Cold War’ Museum. We’ve been trying for nearly three years to acquire an F-4, including one of a number of ex-Spanish AF F-4Cs that are just rotting away at Torrejon. These aircraft are mostly ex-81st TFW Bentwaters-based machines so our interest in acquiring one is understandable. The annoying part about out attempts to bring one back to the UK is that, even though we had the go-ahead from the Spanish AF, we were blocked by the USAF Museum using the usual excuse about loaning airframes to ‘private’ museums etc. The Spanish AF themselves have loaned several of these F-4s to privately-run museums and institutions in Spain so quite clearly it is one rule for one and one rule for another.
I’m getting a little tired of the secrecy involved in the ‘purchase’ of XV408. Surely if it was all above board there wouldn’t be any need for the secrecy?
Regards.

Graham Haynes
Bentwaters ‘Cold War’ Museum

When we say ‘well cared for’ does that mean in a hangar or other suitable building?
If she has been acquired it will make the position of the Yorkshire Air Museum interesting in their bids to acquire an example.

Oh come on mjr spill the beans?

The airframe has been spoken for for a long time now, just logistics have held up delivery, it has been and is still being stored at Fairford, as Damien B points out is is going to a very deserving home and will be very well cared for.

So who owns her then??

We at Bruntingthorpe attempted to aquire her but were told in no uncertain terms that no ex-RAF Phantom airframe would be allowed into private hands, only “official” museums, so I for one am extremely interested as to her next port of call.

Likewise for us at the Bentwaters ‘Cold War’ Museum. We made several attempts to acquire XV408 only to be given the same excuses. If she has been bought by a ‘private’ museum (without being sold via the DSA incidentally) then I think there will be several other museums who will be asking some serious questions.
Regards.

Graham Haynes

Can anyone shed any light on the long-term future of this Phantom? It seems to have been abandoned at Fairford since the 100 years of flight show took place a couple of years ago. Does someone actually own her still, or is she destined to meet her ultimate fate when the base staff get sick of looking at her?

On a plus note its good of the RIAT organisers to place 408 in the static every year!

Plazz

The story has it that after the hundred years of flight show, RAF Halton her owners did not want her back, as I believe they had a nice new shiny “Tonka Toy” and she was going to be scrapped and it was the American base organisation which took her under their wing so to speak.

We at Bruntingthorpe attempted to aquire her but were told in no uncertain terms that no ex-RAF Phantom airframe would be allowed into private hands, only “official” museums, so I for one am extremely interested as to her next port of call.

That’s superb news, I saw enough Phatoms cut up for scrap whilst I was at Wattisham in 1992/3 at least XV408 won’t suffer that indignity. 🙂

I put this question to the Information Office at Fairford a couple of weeks ago during the Fairford Aviation Society’s Meeting. Apparently, it has been sold to a ‘museum’ and they are waiting for him to arrange transport to collect it.

Sounds typical of the government. 😡

The Americans hypocracy and paranoia never ceases to amaze me, if they’re that worried about it being used as a weapon, why do they still sell F-16’s to Pakistan, and the Middle East? :dev2: That jet is a dead duck, it’ll never fly again anyway, so what’s the harm in letting a museum have it, after all Duxford has one! :confused:

She belongs to HM Government. Various people have made approaches about trying to save her in some way but all seem to hit the wall of how the Phantom programme was funded and the almost unbeleivable paranoid over them having any potential to carrry out warlike acts!