Duxford – what about the veterans?!

Thanks for the responses. I do tend to agree about the problems of “signature collecting”, and the fact that this gives little or no time to chat with the veterans. My point in starting this thread was simply to raise awareness of the fact that a lot of these guys were present, and I felt not enough had been made of the fact. I have to say I was rather bemused by the comment that this is an historic aviation thread, not a veterans thread – I fail to understand how you can divorce one from the other, but never mind.

For those who relish the opprtunity to meet and talk to veterans, grab a ticket for Aircrew Forum 2005 at Bletchley Park on 12 July while you still can!

“Part of the problem is there is no heads-up on these press calls – I was only there Sunday and only just made the Bob Foster opportunity, but that was by chance. I assume the Manna one was Saturday only?”

The Op Manna was the only one I made (Saturday). They weren’t really pointed out in the press packs – though there were a good half-dozen people in the media caravan when I heard of it.

Like Ian, I tend to enjoy the chatting with people more than the show. Dunno why, but I tend to not see much of the flying!! I love nothing more than to be at the bar with retired Belgian AF Generals, or eating with WO’s, F/Lt’s and such like. I am lucky I can. And Ian’s ‘T!T’ is incredibly mild compared to my description.

The Americans tend to do the panel thing, and well I understand – Tibbetts at Oshkosh last year for instance, and an Avenger Symposium at Willow Run.

Having had to run too many book signings as a bookseller myself, I have to say it’s the last thing I’d want to have anything to do with from any point of view.

For me the Veterans are everything, I have missed great chunks of the past two Legends because I have been talking to one Veteran or another, last year it was Jimmy Stewart, and the year before the 609 Sqn guys and Michel Donet, though the person running the signing event at that time was a complete and utter t!t, I think Snapper would back me up on this. Thankfully because of the 609 chaps I missed the Firefly tragedy.

At Chailey last year I hardly saw any of the display, I was chatting to Ludwig Matel, Franek Kornicki and their fellow Poles. Merlins over Malta was spent chatting to the Veterans and asking them to sign the piece of Hurricane Fabric that now adorns a wall in a Croydon Mansion.

All I can say is hopefully the aircraft will be here for many years to come, unfortunately it’s a fact of life that the Veterans won’t be. Personally I choose to chat and learn from them while I can. In years to come I can watch the metal grace the sky and remember the people that I have met.

I have no disrespect for those of us who go solely to see the aircraft, each of us has a different interest.

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=42351
The Operation Manna veterans press call was attended by the IWM photographer and, well, me. No other ‘media’ bothered.

Part of the problem is there is no heads-up on these press calls – I was only there Sunday and only just made the Bob Foster opportunity, but that was by chance. I assume the Manna one was Saturday only?

Steve, perhaps people don’t want to express an opinion that might be misconstrued as uncaring.

I’ve got a great deal of respect for veterans, but I rarely subscribe to any of the battery signature farms that are set up by publishers at airshows, often for their own, and not the veterans’ profit. I’d be very happy to reassess this view in the light of more information, perhaps I’m being cynical in taking this view? Without giving it more thought, I can’t offer an alternative way of providing recognition for these people without giving others the opportunity to make a fast buck by riding on the back of their achievements and experiences.

I saw this thread yesterday when it first arrived on the forum, but chose not to reply because I too considered my thoughts may be misconstrued, so I am glad that you Robbo and others see it in a similar light to me.

I have no problem with events like that which Geoff runs that are purely signings and raising funds for charity. But to ask these men in their 80’s and 90’s to sit all day in a stuffy tent on a hot afternoon, away from the airshow action which I’m sure they’d dearly love to be watching and would rather not miss… all so that hoardes of sweaty people line up to ask the same daft questions over and over, and to sign endless nicknacks that they make little or no profit from… I see it as all too much.

I have several friends in the acting profession who have attended just such events as “guests of honour”. These mates have said that, being in their 70’s – i.e. younger than the airmen – locked away in tents with crowds of people for hours on end, answering the same questions, signing the same name… is totally exhausting, hard on the arthritis and a real chore. They do it because they love the fans, and because events like this keep their profile up and thus keep them in work. Airmen don’t necessarily have to keep their profiles up for their job’s sake. But no matter how much they love the attention from adoring fans, I’m sure they still get exhausted and sore.

And what happens a week after these events for the actors I know? A huge amount of the items they signed for their ‘loving fans’ ends up on ebay because they just wanted to make a quid. Not nice.

My personal view is that these events would be better if they presented the airmen as a group, on a stage in a large, airy marquee with rows of chairs for the audience – who pay a little to get in towards a charity of the RAF Benevolent Fund. They’d all be equipped with microphones, and have a professional presenter, perhaps a historian, ask them questions. Sensible questions, that draw out great stories and memories. Perhaps also a few from the audience. Maybe also have a data projector and show some photos of what they are being asked about, etc. I believe they call this a ‘panel’. TV conventions have done it for years. The public would get much more for it, an insight into these men, rathar than a handshake, signature and “move along, next please!” after an hour in the cue.

I’m sure the airmen would also gain much more from it, they could see real respect in the faces of the audience as they educate them, and learn much about the other airmen on the panel as the banter goes back and forward. If the ‘sponsors’ need it so badly, pre-prepared signed products could be available, which have been signed beforehand at a more leisurely pace without the pressure of hoardes massing in.

Sorry if everyone disagrees, but this is how I would run it if I was ever in such a postion. I know my actor friends have enjoyed the ‘panel’ scenario much more than the signings.

the Hurricane Society had three RAF Battle of Britain pilots, who sadly, were largely being ignored for large parts of the day, which I find terribly sad.

Spitfire snobbery again?

Seeing the reply by ‘Zwitter’ about the veteran and the Hurricane wheels reminds me of a conversation I overheard some years ago between the artist Robert Taylor and the late ‘Johnny’ Johnson.
In front of them was a print of Robert’s ‘Coming in over the Estuary’ depicting P38s over Bosham, on the South Coast.
‘Johnny’ was studying the artwork and remarked about the ducks in the foreground….
“What are these?” he asked.
“Ducks” said Robert.
“I can see that,” snapped ‘Johnny’, “But what sort of bl**dy ducks?”
“Mallards, of course!” replied Robert, “Can’t you tell by the markings?”
“If you’re so good with the markings,” snapped ‘Johnny’, “what bl**dy Squadron are they then?”

I agree 100% with Damiens reply above.The veterans are being ,well maybe “used” is not the correct term but it’s the nearest i can think of for my feelings.
I have gone into the tents and seen them being seated behind lines of “fare paying ” people.If you don’t wish to buy a painting or book you wont get near them,it’s like an assembly line.
Maybe they are being “employed ” as such to get people to purchase stuff but it does’nt get the veterans being honoured/ remembered/respected by us,the thankful public.
I would guess that alot of the veterans don’t want the fuss,being put into a goldfish bowl ,but it would be nice to have an area set aside so if you wanted to have a quiet chat and say thanks it was possible.

Guys,

Perhaps I can mention here the signing event at The Shoreham Aircraft Museum this Sunday (15th May) when we will have ten Battle of Britain veterans signing, with ALL money raised going to The Battle of Britain London Monument.

For details of the event see our website, or my separate thread on the signing, which reminds me it’s due a bump.

At last years events, plenty of people took the chance to shake the veterans by the hand and thank them for what they did, and of course we are very grateful that the veterans concerned accepted our invitation to be part of our fundraising efforts for the monument. To be in their company is a pleasure and an honour.

Geoff.

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=42351

There were plenty of veterans just wandering around. I didn’t go into the marquees to snap those signing – I know that some of them are ok, but Robbo is right – there are some who really use them. And I mean excessively.

For me, Duxford is about peple – and ghosts. The Operation Manna veterans press call was attended by the IWM photographer and, well, me. No other ‘media’ bothered. But then I admire the people. The 218 sqdn chap with the DFC on teh flightline was of more interest to me than the aircraft.

But, bear in mind that this is an aviation forum, and not a veterans forum – though many of us hold them just as dear.

Just becasue they arn’t there, it doesn’t mean they arn’t being remembered- I personally can’t watch a Spit or Hurri, or any warbird for that matter fly without having a little thought for all those that gave their lives, and who still live, flying. Also perhaps they might not want to be present at such events for the possibility of being made to feel like a circus act? I can imagine some of them just want to put it all behind them and see out the rest of their days in peace and tranquility. If they do wish to attend, then have an invite for them, dont make them come.

I overheard a veteran pilot in one of the Art vendors marquees, as he pointed at a painting of hurricanes taking off he said “disgraceful – they should have had their bloody wheels up by now!”

classic 😀

I love that comment.

I overheard a veteran pilot in one of the Art vendors marquees, as he pointed at a painting of hurricanes taking off he said “disgraceful – they should have had their bloody wheels up by now!”

classic 😀

It’s a shame that they are not more widely presented to the public. As a paying punter, I’d have been hard pressed to know any were there unless I had a specific interest in the aviation art stands.

Howvever, there’s a balance to be struck between intruding on their personal space – after all, it’s a day out for them, but I do think there could be more of an opportunity to give advance notice of chances for interviews before the weekend – this would allow time to be put aside. I’ve tried in the past, but it has been difficult and time-consuming waiting for that window of opportunity. Sadly, in ten years time or so it will probably be too late.

My apologies if someone has mentioned this, but in all te threads I have read about the Duxford show, I think only one actually mentions the fact that there were veterans present – and a lot of them too. Bob Foster gets a mention as one of the pilots of Hurricane R4118, but what about all the others?

The same signing with Bob had around 10 other veterans, including no fewer than five Typhoon pilots. In other areas there were signings by USAAF aces, and the Hurricane Society had three RAF Battle of Britain pilots, who sadly, were largely being ignored for large parts of the day, which I find terribly sad.

Of course the aeroplanes were wonderful, and that is obviously what most people go there for, but come on chaps, please let’s not forget the guys who flew them!

Aww man wish i was there, i would have loved to been able to speak to soem veterans! Never had the chance before

Hello,
I have had the same impression as I was there with my son (15 ) .He asked me where are they ? It was not so easy to answer …

Hmmm! 105 views and no replies; probably answers my question.