A Fun Idea For Your Next Forum Meet?

Well said Mr Kightly.

I’ve stayed out of this so far, as it’s a rather hot potato. However a thought does occcour.

Anyone prepared to defend ALL the actions of their fellow countrymen, for the period of, let’s see, the last 150 years, please stand up.

Interesting, eh?

No nation has an entirely creditable history. To treat modern Germans (or any other combatant nation of W.W.II) badly is hardly fair or reasonable.

My Grandfather (Royal Australian Navy) would have nothing to do with the Japansese, and that was his perogative. For me to carry that hatred on would be to fall into the pattern that enabled, in part, Hitler to harness hatred from W.W.I for W.W.II. We should not forget, but we should move on too.

Many Itallians (rightly) believed that war was stupid, but followed Mussolini. Before any Britons get too smug, it was perfectly possible for Britain to have become a Faschist dictatorship, and more people of influence in 1939 were sympathetic to Germany than we admit now. After all few forumites admire their politicians of any stripe – but they’re the ones who decide on going to war (or not)!

Very interesting and informative postings, these. I have to say that i am with Hatton on the difference in treatment of Germans/Japanese. It is all very confusing that in this day and age the Japanese apparently do not speak of the war, or educate their children. In school the other day i happened to be printing a worksheet whilst in a GCSE class. One boy was actually trying to defend the actions of the Japanese towards prisoners of war. When asked about how he could do such a thing, he said, and these are his EXACT words:
“Well it looked like nice conditions in The Great Escape – we were never taught about the war, only that it was bad, and should never happen again.”
With attitudes like that (of denial) it is truely a frightening enditement of a nation.
With regard to the re-enactors, History is written by the victors, so when in Europe im sure that the victorious P-51 would have more significance to the spectators than the Zero/Me109 etc. However, perhaps after the Zero/Me109 limps away, perhaps they should fly together in formation over the crowdline to act as a “all friends now” signifier.
My personal experience of war games is, at best, patchy. I own MOH, Battlefield 1942 and Call of Duty. I don’t expect many of you have playd these games or even have seen the videos on a games mag or anything, but i have to say that i play them to conquer the Nazi’s. Not to kill/maim/destroy a particular German/Japanese person, but to help my Grandfather’s side battle through El Alamain for example. I do not believe that these games glorify war, but instead allow a generation who would maybe not be interested with modern history to find out about the Second World War. Just my view.
BARNOWL

Interestingly at the Armistice Day commemorations we have here in Cambridge each year they usually get along the ambassadors or representatives of the Allied countries from both World Wars.

This year along with the NZ, Australian, British, French and US flags there was also an Italian flag flying, and the ambassador of that country was present.

I remarked to someone that it was interesting that they had this year invited a representative of an enemy country for the first time. They replied “But the Italians were on our side in the First World War”. This I did not know. They seem to be only remembered as a weak and somewhat unwilling enemy from WWII. I didn’t know Italy was even involved with WWI. Though the ambassador never spoke, it was nice to know they hadn’t been forgotten.

I seem to recall the Japanese were on our side in WWI too, but I doubt they’ll ever get invited along. I’d personally like to see the German government invited to send a representative, after all the theme is about peace, not war.

I’m not sure if this is on topic of not, but my great grandfather and great uncle both came home from WWI hating the Germans. Their dad (George Washington Pilgrim 1846-1926) hated the Yankees. His great grandfather (Thomas Elijah Pilgrim 1756-1850) most likely continued to hate the British since they are the ones that shot him during the war!

My grandfather (who invaded Okinawa and was waiting to invade mainland Japan when the war ended) went to his eternal reward, still hating the japs. Much like Dave said previously, my grandfather was one of the most gentle folks you can imagine. Until the japs were mentioned.

My great uncle Travis helped liberate Dachau and his hatred of the Germans followed him to the grave.

My Uncle Arden hates the Koreans with a passion. If they hadn’t locked him in a prison camp, beat and starved him for nearly two years, he’d probably be a little more tolerable of them.

My Dad, after 35 years, has no use or regard for the Vietnamese.

My brother and I have developed a slight dislike for the militant muslims over the last couple of years myself.

Sad family trait I guess. But at least we don’t generally dislike people without what we would consider “just cause”.

“Snapper, are these war veterans? I presume they are and I can understand, although I would never presume to fully understand, their feelings. It must be very hard to reconcile with a former enemy that has shot at and killed your friends and people you have cared for.”

Yes. One was caught on the run by the Gestapo and imprisoned in Fresnes in Paris, before going to Buchenwald. He saw many things in France, including summary executions etc. There are some really nasty memories out there.

My grandfather would also never buy Japanese, nor I seem to recall German products.

There were mixed reactions over inviting the Germans to the D-Day commemoration. Some felt it was quite positive (though tempered with something) and some were very much against it. Time does not heal all wounds.

Apologies to all for most drunken postings last night. It’s unforgivable, I lost the plot a bit.

Nothing to apologise for Dave, it would only have been unforgiveable if you had lost your temper 😉

Thanks for your reply to my question. I had not thought to mention the differences in feelings that peole would have towards different enemies. Indeed, it does seem, for striking reasons, that the Japanese have much more anomosity shown towards them then say the Germans.

I didnt realise that the Japanese didnt fully educate their young on Japans role in the Second World War. Can anyone elaborate on this further?

best regards, steve

Apologies to all for most drunken postings last night. It’s unforgivable, I lost the plot a bit.

Anyway, as for the most recent twist in this thread. I have met many veterans and these days few seem to mention any hatred for the Germans. They may still feel it, but they don’t feel it is appropriate any more to mention it I guess.

However, many still feel incredibly bitter towards the Japs. I think this is understandable more than the Germans, because the Japs were a nasty, evil enemy and thought of by the Allies as sub-human scum. What they did to our prisoners is totally unforgivable. And even now they don’t like to acknowlege their role in the war or teach their children about it, which is dispickable.

I have a good friend who fought the Germans in North Africa and Italy. He came home at the war’s end and then joined J Force and went to Japan in 1946 as a peacekeeper. He visited Hiroshima, and on one occasion he has allowed me to see his photos and told me several stories. He’s now well into his 80’s and he still does not buy Japanese products. The only thing he has bought from there was a Toyota car, which took much convincing from his wife and son, and he relented.

In every other aspect of life he is the kindest, gentlest sole who never complains about anything. But mention the Japs, and oh boy.

After all, we Steves must stick together. SRP

will unibond be strong enough? (groan) 🙂

Legible for once, Frau Anna.

Want on-topic? I have friends who even now have a raging, burning hatred for Germans, after 60+ years.

Snapper, are these war veterans? I presume they are and I can understand, although I would never presume to fully understand, their feelings. It must be very hard to reconcile with a former enemy that has shot at and killed your friends and people you have cared for.

Its interesting that Snapper has mentioned this, a lot of people here come into contact with ex aircrew or people who served in other services. Some are family members, some friends. What is the general feeling out there? How do most veterans feel about their former enemies?

best regards, Steve

Want on-topic? I have friends who even now have a raging, burning hatred for Germans, after 60+ years.

On Topic for once, Von Snapper :rolleyes: 😉 :diablo: :diablo: :diablo: Anna :dev2: :dev2: :dev2:

Want on-topic? I have friends who even now have a raging, burning hatred for Germans, after 60+ years.

Steve,

I appreciate your comments, and respect your opinions. After all, we Steves must stick together.

Thanks again.

SRP

Now, I will tell you that in my opinion this is not a time to reflect on the damage inflicted on the civilians of Hiroshima.

Steve thanks for the wider view. I must disagree with the above comment because I think that any show of power like this must go hand in hand with a reflection of the damage it caused and the suffering it caused. At the same time we should consider, as you said, just why America had to drop such a weapon (“Dropping the bomb on Hiroshima saved, by some estimates, over 100,000 American lives by avoiding an invasion of the Japanese homeland”).

As far as the announcer goes, Im very glad that an announcer adds that it isnt glorifying war, im not quite sure I would call it PC. By the sounds of it, the announcer is just making sure that everyone understands the significance of what they are seeing and why the recreation is being performed. I really don’t know what kind of people go to airshows in the US but in the UK I see the odd person here and there at airshows who could do with a reminder of what things like the BBMF are all about 🙂 Im still not quite sure what the mini mushroom cloud bomb performance is meant to achieve but Im glad that you think that most people use the demonstration to personal reflect.

I think we’ve moved on from what this thread originally turned into. It seems we have moved onto a much wider ranging discussion. It doesn’t really help though when people join into a discussion simply for wise cracks and perhaps to cause a little imflammation. Perhaps those people would actually contribute something to this discussion.

Best Regards, steve

What’s allt he fuss about eh? It’s only a game!

Really, Snapper 😉 😎 :diablo: 😀 Anna 😎 :dev2: :dev2:

What’s allt he fuss about eh? It’s only a game!

Amazing. There’s something going on here lately (by which I mean more-or-less since the server died) that I find concerning. That is that we seem to be losing the capacity to debate civily. AFAIK there are no namby pamby PC snivellers, or whatever you want to call them, on Historic (you’ll find them in newer and more general places – oops).

Dave’s original (pre-edited!) post essentially suggested a bunch of people from this forum rock into some pub and start to play this game. And that’s where I had the problem. I still believe that playing the dart game in some semi-random pub, on a casual drop-in basis which is what a forum meet would be, is inappropriate. But that’s only my opinion – I voice it, I add it to the fray and that’s that. If one were to deliberately create a reenaction (as the airshow displays are etc.) I don’t have a problem with it – it is a form of memory and reflection. And as soon as you take the p!ss (eg. Damien’s map) it’s nothing at all to get your knickers in a twist about.

So please, all of us, let’s state our positions, have a debate, and not resort to name calling. It does not reflect well on us all.

Where’s my flowery hat?

I seem to recall there being a board game released during either the 70’s or 80’s called Armageddon, didn’t this involve nuking certain parts of the world in order to gain world domination. Fun for all the family !!!!

After all is said and done these are games, and in the right context shouldn’t be taking too seriously.

Now, I will tell you that in my opinion this is not a time to reflect on the damage inflicted on the civilians of Hiroshima.

TAKE COVER!

Moggy