Shuttleworth this coming Wednesday

My point in raising the significance of the Dove is that the story of Dehavilland
as told in most museums is actually quite unbalanced . There are a great number of Vampires and other twin boomers preserved – pre war aircraft
and some of the ‘one off’s’ are virtually extinct in preservation.
The Comet whilst rightly being glamourous does tend in some eyes to overshadow virtually everything else and I feel it’s worth putting the machine
in context. The Dove I use as an example because it’s contribution to air travel in the undeveloped world is forgotten to many and with it’s sixtieth
anniversary approaching it needs to be acknowledged.

As for your points Mark:

The Comet is unique in terms of the percentage of her which original (even original repaired) If a sad event did happen I think it would be the operator
and families decision as to what happened with the remains. There would be
an undeniable pressure to preserve.

As for the Firefly – That’s the decision of the FAA. In a similar way other U.K
operators have had to make painful decisions on the basis of what’s left of an
aircraft post crash and their sentiments surrounding that.
The Firefly wasn’t unique – the crew were – I don’t have a problem with
the decision of the FAA.

My point in all this is that the Comet is more ‘historic’ than ‘significant’ in the story of D.H . Whilst the restoration is certainly to be congratulated –
any future airborne operation of the airframe has to have the aircraft’s long term future and determination of the risks involved in that brought to the fore.

Nobody would argue with any of that. But what has the Dove to do with this thread?

Moggy

A difficult one.

…and if it was involved in a fatal accident and say just ‘crumped’ a wing and bent an undercarriage, would you scrap it out of respect for the pilot’s family?

If yes – it shouldn’t be flying.

If no – what is the difference between this and the Firefly?

Mark

The ‘odd’ stance Moggy is that the latest restoration is as the result of an accident with the Comet . This isn’t the first incident involving the operation of the aircraft and unfortunately the more it gets damaged the less of it is original. The latest incident highlighted problems with the undercarrriage downlock mechanism which have needed slight redesign to allow for safer
operation. What this highlights is that the Comet was designed for long distance air racing and not as an air display machine . It’s not a simple
aircraft to operate and it’s an aircraft that can quite rapidly bite the hand
of a pilot in the landing phase.
There is a very thin line between operating an historic aircraft for the entertainment of the public and safeguarding the artifact itself for future generations. Your comparison between a Spitfire and Viscount is irrelevant.
The actual comparison is of the relative merits of different types to the Dehavilland story . The fame of the Comet racer has far eclipsed the actual benefit derived by D.H from it . Its folklore that the Comet directly lead to the Mosquito. The Albatross gave far more to the development of the Mosquito but it’s virtually forgotten as a type.
My point in all this is that the Comet is more ‘historic’ than ‘significant’ in the story of D.H . Whilst the restoration is certainly to be congratulated –
any future airborne operation of the airframe has to have the aircraft’s long term future and determination of the risks involved in that brought to the fore.

I am inclined to believe that the type itself isn’t as
important as the Dove

Maybe it is, maybe it isn’t. So what’s your point?

That we shouldn’t be interested in the taxi trials of a restored Comet because they built more Doves?

Odd stance.

The Vickers Viscount is a more significant airframe than the VS Spitfire since it carried more passengers and suffered less fatalities. Discuss

Moggy

Am I allowed to disagree with the opinion of an author ? The statement that the D.H88 provided much information to the Mosquito is true but a great many would say that the fuselage construction of the Mosquito directly came from the Albatross.
The Albatross in its operation and indeed through damage that occured to the machines at various stages taught DeHavilland a great deal about the benefits and indeed flaws of the construction method . They couldn’t have learnt any of this from the Comet and this was of prime importance in the development of the Mosquito.
Prior to the D.H 88 Comet, DeHavilland had been involved with the D.H 71
Tiger Moth and the various T.K series of machines. There was already a culture of air racing at DeHavilland before the Comet.
If you view an overall picture of the DeHavilland company – you will find that the D.H 88 Comet aircraft whilst historic didn’t keep people in employment for long or indeed provide much revenue to the company.
The Dove series however provided twenty plus years of employment at both Hatfield and Chester. They served with a great number of airlines and military operators and continue to operate now with various operators.
I think that’s a pretty good achievement for an aircraft that was on the production line when the war was still in progress in the Far East.
Whether the Dove is as interesting as a ‘Routemaster bus’ or not I would say that nearly sixty years of faithful service is a slightly greater claim to fame than a number of record flights achieved in the late 1930’s by the Comet type.

With regard to the influence of the Comet Racer on the Mosquito can I refer you to Page 360 of the A.J.Jackson book on DH a/c in which he states that “the historic aircraft which provided so much data for the Mosquito”. Good enough for me. It’s rather like comparing a Le Mans winning Bentley with a Routemaster bus. Both useful bits of kit but one is exciting and the other isn’t. The fact that DH built the Comets at a loss so that “Team GB” could win also outweighs anything that the Dove did in my opinion.

The machine certainly did win the air race but it’s worth pointing out that the airframe was a combination of available components derived from a number of sources and quickly combined to make a machine. There wasn’t a technology leap as there was with the Schneider Trophy series. For example the DC-2 and Comet racer couldn’t be defined as being similar in any way – the only way they could compete on an even basis was through handicapping .
As for the springboard which the D.H88 is viewed as to the Mosquito – the facts are that a Mosquito differs considerably from a D.H88
and is far more similar to the D.H 91 Albatross in how the fuselage is constructed.
The simple facts are that the Dove first flew in 1945 and it was still in production twenty years later. The production amounted to 540 aircraft . The Heron from memory reached 148 machines. The Drover was built to number 21 but it could hardly be expected to reach higher numbers due to the specialist role it was suited to.
The impact of the Dove was fundamental to maintaining the fortunes of the DeHavilland company and gave employment to many.
It’s role in establishing airlines in underdeveloped parts of the world cannot be underestimated . Look at a list of airlines establised in the 1950 and 60’s
and you will find few that didn’t have a Dove or Heron at some stage.
My arguement is that the Dove is a far more significant machine to DeHavilland than the D.H 88 Comet ever was. This doesn’t deminish the achievement of the various crews who piloted the type on many record flights
but apart from the honour gained from the achievement , DeHavilland wasn’t in a position to gain from the Comet as Douglas could with it’s demonstration
of the ability of the DC-2.

And which particular Dove won a London-Australia Air Race at a time when air-racing was viewed as an indication of a nation’s technological prowess? The link to the Mosquito was also significant as well I would have thought. Still the Dove did lead to the Heron (fewer sold) and the Drover (even fewer sold). Let’s not belittle the significance of the Comet Racer and the efforts of the team trying to keep her in the air.

I take it they mean the restoration following the undercarriage collapse!
Whilst the aircraft is certainly historic the events that have happened in her
life since her flying heyday (i.e 1930’s) have considerably diluted her pedigree.
As for the historical importance of the D.H 88 Comet in the fortunes of the DeHavilland company I am inclined to believe that the type itself isn’t as
important as the Dove because the Dove was produced in mass numbers and introduced affordable transportation to many parts of the world.

ACSP

Cees – this link should take you to their web page

http://www.blackmagic.abelgratis.com/Pages/Index.html

I suspect it may be a while before we see the two of them on the ramp together at Old Warden….or should that particular scene be staged at Mildenhall.

enjoy

Any news on Black Magic’s progress? Would be nice to see both together on the ramp running up the engines.

Cees