E.E Lightning

I’ve no idea whether the Lightning is considered complex or not. Given the age of the beast, intermediate would seem more likely, but the biggest problem is it’s considered unsafe.
I understand one of the major problems is all the flight controls are in the spine along the top of the fuselage. Given the types propensity for engine fires, much as I would love to see one fly, I can’t blame the CAA for not allowing it.

PS it’s COMA – Company Operated Military Aircraft..

I knew that…….so can’t for the life of me work out why I stuck the ‘O’ on the end instead of an ‘A’……..
Brain working faster than digit I guess………or is it digit working faster than brain……..or just brain not working at all…….:rolleyes: 😀

Firebird, Absolutely correct, the only Lightning at Warton is indeed XS928, on it’s bit ‘o concrete not 50 yards from where I now sit. i know it is engineless and from chatting to the preservation group here, it was,as you say, spares recovered before going on display. Shame it’s in silver though…
Cheers
Dees

PS it’s COMA – Company Operated Military Aircraft..

Hello Firebird,

I know there was talk of the OFMC putting there F4 in the air but I think thats all it was. The fact that they got the aircraft in the first place when scrappies were being ordered to reposses cockpit sections they had sold as viloating the SALT treaty might suggest that you would wont to keep quiet about it! I doubt the facillities at Duxford would have been upto scratch for the operation of such a beast.

I’m with you on the Lightning info. 🙂

Various reasons ( and yes this has been discussed at length ). All are classified as ‘complex’ aircraft and as a result need the backing of the ‘design authourity’. The Lightning will never fly in this country, the CAA consider the design ‘not safe’ for operation. The Buccaneer stands a good chance and Hawker Hunter Aviation are busy working towards this aim. The Phantom – well nobodys tried yet!

I thought Mark Hanna/OFMC had actually applied to the CAA for a permit after taking delivery of their F.4……… :confused:

I also seem to remember something about no civvie F.4 being allowed because of the possibility of violation of one of those cold war treaties…. :confused:
As a result it took an act of congress for the Collings Foundation’s F.4 to be allowed to fly in it’s role as flying Vietnam war memorial.

I seem to remember that the flight of XR724 to Binners from Shawbury was under COMO rules, with ownership of the aircraft having been transferred back from the Lightning Association to BAe, with the G-BSTY serial being removed and XR724 being re-applied. I seem to remember that Baz Livesey signed off the paperwork as the BAe engineer overseeing the re-commision to flight status.

As for F.6’s at Warton, I thought the only one was XS928 and that certainley isn’t complete, being gutted as a spares source for the ex-LFC/now SA fleet… :confused:

“Correct. The Sea Vixen has a RAT (Ram Air Turbine) which can provide power for the flying controls in emergencies.”

yes,in the event of double engine failure, or pump failures., albeit limited, very gentle power for flying controls, and still reliant on all pipe work being undamaged.

As does the lightning for limited power via Nitrogen accumulators. Although the lightning has no cable operated RAT, it would require both engines to stop , and stop windmilling, followed by a complete failure of the associated accumulators for elevator, rudder and aeleron controls, or a catastrophic failure of pipe work. A pretty rare set of events, complete hydraulic failures were rare on the lightning. Engine fires are what really taint the lightnings service history. Although reduced in later years, most losses were still caused by fuel leak fires.

MJR

www.gatwick-aviation-museum.co.uk

The Buccaneer is classed as complex.
Because it has no manual reversion If the hydraulics fail it only goes one way……..

The system will not allow one to fly in the UK because of this. I presume the Sea Vixen does have it.

Correct. The Sea Vixen has a RAT (Ram Air Turbine) which can provide power for the flying controls in emergencies.

Know that would be a sight 😀

from what i can understand from the complex and safety issues regarding the seavixen and vulcan is that it as back up systems in place in the case of a failure ram air turbines for powering the systems comes to my mind ,things the lighting does not have . but as been said if and when the vulcan flys and does so with no problems then this could open the caa’s eyes open a bit and may look again if certain criteria are met .i hold great doubt the caa would ever grant one a permit but would love to be proved wrong and see a vulcan flanked by a single or pair of lightings .
would that be a crowd puller or what

It is not really a speed issue ( although it probably comes into it ) as the Sea Vixen is supersonic. It all boils down to the complex nature of the systems used on the aircraft. The Vulcan and Buccaneer are considered ‘safe’ designs and as such as long as an operater can prove it can maintain them and the design authourity gives its approval and backing and you can afford it, the door starts to open. The Lightning on the other hand is a different matter. I believe the CAA see the aircraft as ‘not safe’ for operation – even for the military, the design having several basic flaws. The main one being the positioning of the engines and the potential for fuel fires. My favourite aircraft, so that annoys me especially as alot has been done to reduce the risk. But I admit if I had to sign the paperwork to take responsibility for letting the aircraft fly in this country I would have to think long and hard about it.

Would the fact that we’re talking aircraft with the capability of going supersonic be part of the problem (was the Bucc supersonic?)?

Something could go wrong over Birmingham and the aircraft might end up in Manchester – that’s enough to make any bureaucrat go weak in the bowels. I can see that an old airframe with the capabilities of a Lightning would cause concern to officialdom! The key point is that the South African machines cannot fly over populated areas, and South Africa has a lot of free space unlike us.

It’s clearer now thanks! Although I’d still like to know the official description of a “Complex” aircraft.

JC
Considering a holiday to South Africa.

Agreed Bae Systems could – but not a civilian operator with Bae’s backing. XR724’s ferry flight was undertaken as a military flight even though it had a civil reg.

The ferry flight mentioned above caused a serious rift between BAE and the CAA as the CAA stated that their was no way a Lightning was going to fly again in the UK and then BAE went over the CAA and made the flight.
The CAA were not amused but their was nothing they could do about it.

Yes Adwebber you can fly a Jet Provost on a PPl.

The SA CAA permit alow’s them to operate in South Africa only and only over non populated area’s. I think the LPG guys are just clutching at straws, having had the chance this year to talk to a couple of the guys who sit on the board that make the decisions about what can fly in this country I would say the chances are pretty much zero – unfortunatly.

Interseting that Thunder City idea… I was under the impression that the SA CAA restricts them to only SA airspace and hence the ZU- registration series… I could well be wrong but the restriction seems to be from a distant memory of something I read.
OAW

Clarkson ‘borrowed’ the one at Wycombe, had it moved over to his house and parked on the garden, waited for Mrs Clarkson to throw her toys out of the pram, and then he sent it back again. Not sure why, but I did allow myself a chuckle or two when I heard about it. 😉

On the subject of Lightnings, UK airspace, and whether or not one will ever contain the other again, I’ll pitch in a comment I heard at Bruntingthorpe last month. Some of the guys showing folks around the two Lightnings (LPG?) were talking about there being a plan to bring one of the Thunder City Lightnings to the UK for flying displays. I can’t recall whether they mentioned a timescale, but they did seem to be quite adamant that the wheels are in motion.

Now, before anyone bites my head off, I have to confess I don’t know the exact letter of the law here. But my take on it has always been that these are complex aircraft, which would therefore require manufacturer support before the CAA allow them to fly here. Therefore, I’m not holding my breath.

My reason for posting this though is that it really has made me curious; why would the LPG boys be telling various members of the public that a Thunder City Lightning may be coming over to display, if the powers-that-be are seemingly unlikely to allow it? Could there be any substance to what they were saying, or is it a case of wishful thinking?

Interested in your thoughts…

The Buccaneer is classed as complex.
Because it has no manual reversion If the hydraulics fail it only goes one way……..

The system will not allow one to fly in the UK because of this. I presume the Sea Vixen does have it.
The lightning im’m not sure does it have hrdraulic flight controls or is it pulley’s and wires ?

Also i heard that Jet Provost can be flown on a PPL ?

Didn’t Jeremy Clarkson purchase one once………. 😀 😀 😮

(I know it was all theatrical)

TNZ

Lightning aviation art

While we’re on the subject of the Lightning, there are some nice new aviation art prints released to commemorate the type’s 50th anniversary first flight in August 1954.

I’m posting them here for the enjoyment of all Lightning fans here 🙂

Lightning by Michael Rondot

Lightning Tribute by Stephen Brown

A Bolt for the Blue by Gerald Coulson

Long Live the Lightning! 😀 🙂 😀

__________________

eHangar.com – the Aviation Art Directory & Portal for Aviation Art enthusiasts, artists, dealers and publishers

Here we go again……..

Buccaneer = COMPLEX

Straight from the horse’s mouth http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?p=465125#post465125

Sorry Mike I rarely visit the other forums here so wouldn’t have seen this thread! 😉

The Buccaneer stands a good chance and Hawker Hunter Aviation are busy working towards this aim. The Phantom – well nobodys tried yet!

So presumably the Buccaneer comes under the same “intermediate” catagory as the Sea Vixen then?

Personally I don’t think there’s much chance of seeing a civvy Phantom in UK skies again.