Collective Actions

As regards the collective nature – the British forces were an appallingly class ridden institution, and the management and awards reflected that. There were a few awards of VCs for consistant repeated valour – Was Gibson’s one?

And then James there was the interesting case of the VC Billy Bishop ‘won’.
and the Camel pilot on the Italian front too.
Corroboration is obviously a substance that warrants careful handling!!!

Cheers
Andy

Scharnhorst and Genisenau (sp!) ..

James, it is Gneisenau, and I only ever get it correct because I have a sticker with the correct spelling stuck on the front of my pc screen because I find it impossible to remember how to spell it correctly! 😮

Hmmm. …. TV programmes oversimplfy…

No. Surely not?

Moggy

(Good bit of digging though. Well done)

Moggy.

It has nothing to do with any 21st Century notion of fairness. I held these views last Century too.

Quite so Kev. I never doubted it.

But you are a considerable bit younger than I. (Damnit!)

I was merely pointing out that some years back ‘fairness’ or ‘equity’ wasn’t expected. I am not saying that this was a good state of affairs, merely that it existed. Nobody would have thought it at all odd that the younger son of Lord Whatsit received a DFC whilst the son of his ploughman, for a similar piece of aviation bravery was awarded a DFM.

Transfer the VC scenario to a Naval action – Battle of the River Plate for example. I can’t offhand recall if a VC was awarded, but if it were the Commodore of the three cruiser force would undoubtedly have received it. Awarding it to everybody on his ship would have been unwieldy, but then it would need to have been awarded to everybody on all three cruisers surely? Again I have no idea of the complements, but that was probably something like two thousand men.

See the problem?

I do.

I can understand why ‘collective’ VCs weren’t awarded.

It still doesn’t make it fair, but people from that era would not have thought it odd.

Moggy

Have any VC’s been handed out for the current war in Iraq?

Dave, as far as I’m aware, the last two VC’s to be awarded were to Col Herbert Jones and Sgt Ian McKay, both Parachute Regiment in the Falklands in 1982, and both posthumously. Col Jones in the attack on Goose Green, Sgt McKay in the attack on Mount Longdon.

Dave
I think you’ll find Flying Officer Trigg was flying a Liberator GR.V of 200 Sqn.
They were at the time based at Yumdum in The Gambia.
The action took place 240 miles South West of Dakar at 09.45 (local) on 11th August 1943.
Cheers
Andy

You’re absolutely correct Andy, it was a Liberator. Sorry, it was late at night and I was going by my shocking memory, remembering back to my RNZAF training at GSTS, WOodbourne where they taught us the history of the service. I got a little confused there. Trent was definately in a Ventura though.

James, again I concede, retract and delete to try not to cause trouble. Sorry to anyone who disagrees with me.

Have any VC’s been handed out for the current war in Iraq?

OK, so it’s 85 and I said 20. I wasn’t too far off … :rolleyes:

Now that you mention it, I did know that the ‘Russian’ guns were in fact Chinese. However, although Chinese-made, they were captured from Russian forces, or at least were supposedly so.

Lloyd Trigg attacked a U boat and though the Ventura aircraft was very badly damaged they pressed home the attack till the U boat was sunk. The plane crashed and all aboard died. It was the U boat commander who recommended the VC being awarded when he was picked up and made a prisoner, which is an incredibly sporting gesture after his submarine had been sunk.

Dave
I think you’ll find Flying Officer Trigg was flying a Liberator GR.V of 200 Sqn.
They were at the time based at Yumdum in The Gambia.
The action took place 240 miles South West of Dakar at 09.45 (local) on 11th August 1943.
Cheers
Andy

Hmmm. Looks like most things, memory plays tricks and TV programmes oversimplfy…

From here

Inspired perhaps by the Queen’s remarks, someone had the happy thought that it would be fitting to take the bronze for the new medals from Russian guns captured in the Crimea. Accordingly, an engineer went off to Woolwich Barracks, where two 18-pounders were placed at his disposal. Despite the fact that these guns were clearly of antique design and inscribed with very un-Russian characters, nobody pointed out until many years had passed that the ‘VC guns’ were in fact Chinese, not Russian, and may or may not have been anywhere near the Crimea.
The Chinese gunmetal proved so hard that the dies which Hancock’s used began to crack up, so it was decided to cast the medals instead, a lucky chance which resulted in higher relief and more depth in the moulding than would have been possible with a die-stamped medal.

Or more credible sounding here

Each VC is still made by the same London jewelers, Messrs Hancocks [now HANCOCKS & CO. (JEWELLERS) LTD – Established 1849, 1 Burlington Gardens, London W1X 2HP, U.K. Tel: (44) 20 7493 8904, Fax: (44) 20 7493 8905] from the bronze of Chinese cannons captured from the Russians at the siege of Sebastopol. However, the VC to GORLE was flouroscoped by the Tower of London and found to be fairly common Bronze which was was apparently the case for some crosses in WWI. From the RCL Corps Gazette October 1997 (page 358):

The Victoria Cross Cascabel

A little, known fact, even to many “experts” is that the metal used to forge every Victoria Cross is tended by 15 Regiment Royal Logistic Corps in Donnington. The VC metal rarely sees the light of day as it is secured in special vaults and is removed only under exceptional circumstances; however, on 28 May, this item of national history was transported to the Imperial War Museum in London for the royal opening of the Victoria Cross and George Cross Exhibition.

Weighing 358 ounces and looking somewhat like a lump of cheese, the VC metal is unique among BOD Donnington’s 700,000 item headings of Army stores. It is all that remains of the bronze cascabels from two Russian cannon captured at Sebastopol, the last great battle of the Crimean War in 1854-55. The cascabel, a large knob at the rear of the cannon, held ropes which were used when the artillery piece was being man-handled. The two cannon, minus cascabels, stand proudly outside the Officers Mess in Woolwich.

The most recent issue of metal, exactly fifty ounces and sufficient to make twelve medals, occurred on 23 October 1959, to Messrs Hancocks & Co (Jewellers) Ltd, the royal jewellers who have been responsible for individually making each medal since the inception of the VC in 1857. Given that fifty ounces are required to make twelve Victoria Cross medals, the remaining 358 ounces contain enough for a further eighty five.

Hmmm. Sounds like I may be wrong then! However compared to the other points made or contested, and Kev’s original post, it’s a minor one. (Though major for me. Nurse, the sword please…)

Moggy.

It has nothing to do with any 21st Century notion of fairness. I held these views last Century too. Whether discrepancies occur through class distininction or not is unclear. As we all know an Officer got a DFC while OR’s got DFM’s. If the VC is awarded irrespective of rank I fail to understand why it was not awarded for collective actions. Flood mentioned Garland and Gray receiving VC’s while Reynolds family only got a telegram. It would be interesting to know on what criteria Reynolds was deemed unworthy of recognition, or did the RAF really consider LAC Observers and Gunners as nothing more than ballast?

regards,

kev35

Ah, beat me to it Moggy!

The original VC medals were cast from Russian cannon (plural) from the Crimean war, but that metal ran out a long time ago now. i’m not sure if it was W.W.II or before.

I believe that this is incorrect. The VCs continued to be made from the bronze of Russian cannon. I understand that the jewellers who made the VCs (I can’t remember which company it is) have a stock of about five or six VCs in hand, with a remaining lump of bronze sufficient for, I think, about another 20 or so.

The original VC medals were cast from Russian cannon (plural) from the Crimean war, but that metal ran out a long time ago now. i’m not sure if it was W.W.II or before.

Not so. A recent television programme on the VC showed the Crimean material that remains in the safe at the only jewellers who manufacture the VC. There is a fair sized chunk remaining; I’m sure we hope there is more than sufficient for the next millennium.

Kev has posed a good question. I fear though that it has its basis in the 21st Century notions of fairness.

For these, early 20th Century guys ‘fairness’ didn’t exist. You could bitch about it, but that was how it was. To us now though, it looks very shabby.

Moggy

whoo.

Dave. I think your remark about American medals is out of line. The US equivalents are handed out just as judiciously as the British, IMHO, and if I was American I’d take grave exception to that remark. Yes, each nation gives out loads of medals, and it’s easy to depricate other counties ones, but VC / GC equivalents? No, I don’t think so.

A few other errors there too chaps. (I’m not an expert, but here goes with some corrections) The VC was the first* British award for extreme bravery irrispective or rank – previously they had been rank connected, and most still are.

The original VC medals were cast from Russian cannon (plural) from the Crimean war, but that metal ran out a long time ago now. i’m not sure if it was W.W.II or before.

There was an interesting index over the awards of VCs to worthy recipinents as a ‘band aid’ over the pointlessness or screw-up factor of the operation; some (Trigg and Ward being mentioned exceptions) but it remains rather frightening to see that VCs are more frequent when the operation was a disaster. The case of Esmonde (the Swordfish) was one, some of the Arnheim awards, and the first ever* batch being to the chaps at Rorke’s Drift in the Zulu war being something like 1/2 doz – and that was a pointless action, due to classic British army incompetance. It’s a sad reflection on valour.

An converse example is the Tarranto raid. 100% casualries were EXPECTED and ACCEPTED by the seniour command. A few minor awards were given out, very late, after many of the crews were killed in subsiquent operations, but ridiculous for one of history’s most important battles. Yes, I’m sure (but we’ll never know) that if it had been a disaster, a few VCs would have been chucked in to mitigate the criticism. The bravery was no different from Tarranto to the Bismak raids to the Scharnhorst and Genisenau (sp!) debacle, but the disaster got the VCs. 🙁

As regards the collective nature – the British forces were an appallingly class ridden institution, and the management and awards reflected that. There were a few awards of VCs for consistant repeated valour – Was Gibson’s one? But the poor guys along for the ride? Hmmm.

There’s quite a few good websites on Medal of Valor and VC, Dave. I think you have some homework to do before one of our American friends takes you to task. 😉

*I’ve asterisked where I’m NOT certain…

I seem to remember a story about a Catalina having been badly shot and limping home with the pilot in and out of consciousness, the whole crew survived thanks to the pilot… he was not awarded the VC because of an element of ‘self preservation’…

That sounds like Flt/Lt John Cruickshank, who did get a VC for this action.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Alexander_Cruickshank

Flood

I have removed the said quip, as it obviously offended Kev, sorry(let me say it had nothing to do with the dog’s name by the way).

Yes, I think you’re right about collective bravery. It just doesn’t make sense really does it? I mean in most cases that pilot won’t have been able to have carried out the deed he’s awarded for without the gunners protecting him, or without the bomb aimer actually completing the mission they’re sent to do, and the navigator getting them there in the first place.

The RNZAF has had three VC recipients. Sgt Jimmy Ward was on Wellingtons in 75 (NZ) Sqn. He was 2nd pilot when the wing was hit and caught fire. He climbed out onto the wing and back several times till he’d smothered the fire with a tarpaulin, and saved the crew. So yes, this is a good one for being singled out.

But the other two were like you say, collective efforts. Lloyd Trigg attacked a U boat and though the Ventura aircraft was very badly damaged they pressed home the attack till the U boat was sunk. The plane crashed and all aboard died. It was the U boat commander who recommended the VC being awarded when he was picked up and made a prisoner, which is an incredibly sporting gesture after his submarine had been sunk. In this case it was Trigg’s decision to continue to attack the sub rather than let it go and save himself and the crew, but it was the whole crew’s efforts that saw the sub sunk. They all should have received the award, yes.

And the third RNZAF VC was Leonard Trent – the only one of the three to survive the war. He also pressed home his attack, this time on land when 10 Venturas were sent to bomb a power house. Only his got to the target, all the others were shot down. He dropped his bombs and damaged the power house, and then was shot down on the way home, and spent the rest of the war a POW (except for a brief escape he made during The Great Escape, which was short lived freedom.)

Again, it was his whole crew that took part. I just wonder is it because the pilot is Captain and makes the ultimate decision, is it considered his responsibility, and thus his bravery? This despite the fact the crew may all be like brothers and would never consider leaving each other or arguing the fact, etc, and all would be as brave as the pilot who’s made the decision for them.

Pilot F/O Donald Garland and navigator Sgt Thomas Gray were both awarded their Victoria Crosses – the first of the war, apparently – for the attack on bridges along the Albert Canal, Belgium, on 12 May 1940. But LAC L Reynolds also gave his life in the same Fairey Battle (P2204, PH-K of 12Sqn) yet his sacrifice went unrecognised because he did not occupy a decision making position.
http://www.victoriacross.net/award.asp?vc=443
http://www.victoriacross.net/award.asp?vc=484
Lots of information of the Victoria Cross in general here:
http://www.victoriacross.net/default.asp

Flood

The VC is awarded irrespective of rank. I think if it’s awarded for a collective action all should receive it. I understand about it being special but if all the crew died, or not, then they contributed to said action and should be treated the same. I think the cannon you referred to came from Balaclava. It was in the Crimea anyway.

Regards,

kev35

In Gibson’s case, the VC was awarded for the Dams Raid. Or was it? If it was for the raid itself then why were the rest of the crew awarded lesser decorations? They collectively completed the mission and Gibson could not have done it without his crew. So, why the distinction? It could be said that it was for his leadership throughout the preparations and the raid and that would make more sense. I have not seen the citation.

I don’t know for sure but I wonder if it is a matter of rank. Gibson was the highest ranked and the leader, and many RAF awards are different for different ranks who do the same deeds – the good old snobbery of the Brits coming into play. (though the VC isn’t normally differential like that because NZ had a few Sgt VC’s so this is probably wrong).

VC’s never get given out often because they are extra special. Even though the whole crew, and no doubt all the other crews that night and many thousands on other occassions deserved the same recognition, it simply couldn’t be done. I understand that all VC’s are struck from the same source, they’re made from the barrel of an 1800’s canon used in some battle or other. I can’t recall fully. But they would surely run out of source material if they handed them out to all who deserved it.