German Spitfire wreck on Arrow Warbirds site

With respect to the CAA view on accepting aircraft with previous military service as acceptable for authourisation to fly (other than if regarded as a “complex” type). At what point DO the CAA regard a heavily restored aircraft as having previous service & therefore grant it a permit ?

Apologies if this has already been discussed in another thread.

Interesting theory Mark but I do tend to give less credit to ‘continuous lineage’ seeing that using that to it’s ultimate end we can rebuild a complete
Spitfire from little more than a wingtip . Interestingly how much does the CAA
actually know about the rebuild of a Spitfire anyway? Certainly the paperwork
is clear cut and the traceability of components and origin is of prime importance but can we really say that the CAA can objectively inspect the remains of a Spitfire and using their knowledge class it as a rebuild?
There are clearly areas where the CAA cannot have the knowledge base
that a specialist rebuilder has who handles warbird rebuilds on a daily basis.
When we start saying that a data plate isn’t entirely necessary we get to the stage where effectively we are basing the provenance on circumstance
or scant detail. Certainly the Burmese Spitfire at Duxford can clearly be seen as a legitamate rebuild because of it’s lineage but when we start saying that
a corroded firewall and a few other parts constitutes a Spitfire we are getting on rocky territory.
The value of a machine will in many cases reflect in it’s provenace but there are clear exceptions to this. I can think of at least on Spitfire where
a rebuild has actually diluted the original machine considerably.
Modifications from original specfications also can either detract from or enhance the value of a machine depending on the buyer’s wishes .

Mark – I don’t have an involvement in the world of Spitfire parts so
luckily I don’t get frightened very often. I do however have friends with CAD/CAM experince so anything is possible.
What I should say is that I believe the ‘small guy’ in a garage can still
achieve something in the Spitfire world. Clearly it would take someone considerably longer but part maufacture /repair/rebuild can still be done on a shoestring.

David B

In UK Spitfire terms, if you are talking flying, the days of the ‘small guy in the garage’ are over – the CAA and approvals paperwork have seen to that.

High grade statics using original, caste off and new manufactured, but non approved parts, can be done of course and I believe a ‘poor’ enthusiast will hunt down parts more successfully than a ‘wealthy’ operator.

Friends with CAD/CAM are great for non flying parts but unless you you have full traceability on the materials, and forgings means forgings with grain flow, with release notes together with full approvals for the manufacture, inspection and sign off, you do not have a shoestring option.

Imagine two almost identical, basically new manufacture, Mk.V Spitfires made in the same facility from a combination of new and original parts. One started with a pile of low grade bits, a front fuselage or firewall etc from ‘AB123’ with 100% confirmed and verifiable provenance, data plates maybe but not important. The other, from an equally un-impressive pile of bits and no such RAF serial linkage.

I believe British law says the former can be considered an ‘original’ by virtue of the continuous history of the parts – ‘Bentley No 1’ being the test case.

Here are the two Spitfires, two years on both flying with 50 hours flying on each. Both are for sale from the same source. One carries serial and provenance link ‘AB123’ the other is a ‘composite sir’.

When you know the difference in perceived market value and price of these two aircraft you will be able to put a value on the German front fuselage RK912.

Mark

There is substantially more parts show on the Arrow website of the Spit, though they are all a bit mangled.

Interesting to note that they claim salvage of the complete Halifax is possible on the website. Unfortunately the current contents of my pockets is have £3.73, 1 Euro, an old tissue & a furry sweet so I can’t help on that one.

Merlin – the other option is play the double bluff ! Tell her you paid £20K for
it and you think you’ve got a bargain ! She’l never believe you!

Surprisingly the reply over breakfast was quite encouraging. All I need in the short/medium term is a museum that would like to display it.

Please ask your CAD/CAM man for a quote on a complete set of forged machinings for a Mk IX engine bearer with supporting paperwork. Sit down before you open the envelope.

After you recover from the shock, please post the details to me, I am sure I can get them done here in India for half the price 😀 if not less

Seriously, I think some of the machining work can be carried out in these spots for some real bargains. But then someone will have to come all the way from UK/US to oversee the work and the costs will even out.

Merlin – the other option is play the double bluff ! Tell her you paid £20K for
it and you think you’ve got a bargain ! She’l never believe you!

Mark – I don’t have an involvement in the world of Spitfire parts so
luckily I don’t get frightened very often. I do however have friends with CAD/CAM experince so anything is possible.
What I should say is that I believe the ‘small guy’ in a garage can still
achieve something in the Spitfire world. Clearly it would take someone considerably longer but part maufacture /repair/rebuild can still be done on a shoestring.

German Spitfire

Merlin70, just send the cheque off & take the flak later when a large lump of Spit is deposited in you’re driveway !

Merlin – Just don’t tell her ! Put a sheet over it and pretend you’ve bought a new mower or something!

Are you suggesting that I should tell fibs. 😮 Start of a slippery slope. How would I smuggle in the new parts required? tumble driers or fridge freezers don’t have pointy bits and rudders.

Honesty is the only way. Just hope I don;t have to part with too many other things. I look forward to this conversation over breakfast tomorrow. I suspect for those who live in the home counties, if you have your windows open at about 8:30 you should get to hear the answer.

What was the actual time difference between the picture in FlyPast with the
gentleman sitting in a virtually intact PT462 at the Kibbutz and her recovery?

DavidB

Estimated at ten years. In the intervening years the aircraft was consigned to the municipal dump, from which it was extricated.

Please ask your CAD/CAM man for a quote on a complete set of forged machinings for a Mk IX engine bearer with supporting paperwork. Sit down before you open the envelope.

Mark

Congrats, I’m looking forward to some cracking results when it arrives.

Rob

Me too. Shame we’re running out of airshow season rather rapidly.

She’d say bye bye to that new lens idea of yours for a start.

Too late for that. It is already on its way from Guernsey 😀 😀

Merlin – Just don’t tell her ! Put a sheet over it and pretend you’ve bought a new mower or something!

What was the actual time difference between the picture in FlyPast with the
gentleman sitting in a virtually intact PT462 at the Kibbutz and her recovery?

Mmmh. £20,000 eh. I wonder what Mrs Merlin70 would say if I parked that in the back of the garage? 😮

Did I see a photo many years ago of PT462 which shows that it was rebuilt from a wreck almost identical to RK912 ?

Highback

You most certainly did.

Here is PT462 as recovered in Israel in May 1983.

…………………………………………………

dcollins103

RK912: If the steel parts were recoverable it would be good value at the asking price. Without re-starting the age old debate, the asking price must reflect both the value of the engineering donor parts and the provenance association to a flying reconstruction project

Mark

There wasn’t a great deal of difference except for that PT462 hadn’t been submerged. I look at the Mk.9 as a Merlin worth £5K maybe- firewall forward
components £5K and the rest possibly £10K.
It’s possible to create from a dataplate and some suitably large components a Spitfire . The amount of original material required for a viable
project has dramatically diminished due to remanufacture and more cost effective means of machining i.e CAM.

Spitfire in Germany

Did I see a photo many years ago of PT462 which shows that it was rebuilt from a wreck almost identical to RK912 ?

Spitfire in Germany

Does anyone know what the asking price is for the German Spitfire ?