US pilots breaking neutrality

Forgive me for not reading the entire thread. Might be way off track here.

I know that the fighter pilot I’m currently writing a book about (it’s close to print now) hopped over from Canada to the USA several times in a Stinson seaplane when he was an instructor. This was in the first months of 1941. Not sure if that qualifies as breach of neutrality, but they were indeed in uniform and came from a military training camp.

http://hk.news.yahoo.com/article/090707/4/d2s9.html

8 July 2009:
Reportedly, Hong Kong action movie director John Woo went to Yun Nan Province, to prepare for his next US$ 100 mil movie about the AVG, which traces from 1938 when Chennault arrived in Yun Nan, to 1945 when he went home.
No casting yet.

http://tw.news.yahoo.com/article/url/d/a/090503/60/1iuun.html

New book about the WWII CACW (Chinese-American Composite Wing), published in February 2009 by the Taiwanese MND, in Chinese and English.

Chinese version:
http://www.govbooks.com.tw/viewitem.aspx?prodno=9738

English version, titled “THE IMMORTAL FLYING TIGERS: AN ORAL HISTORY OF THE CHINESE-AMERICAN COMPOSITE WING”:
http://www.govbooks.com.tw/viewitem.aspx?prodno=9740

http://tw.news.yahoo.com/article/url/d/a/090323/5/1gixn.html

美國飛虎隊遺址公園在廣西桂林開工
中央社 更新日期:”2009/03/23 10:07″

An AVG park will be built at the ruins of the AVG command post, at Yang Tang AB, Lin Gui County, Gui Lin City, Guang Xi Province; the only former AVG command post that survives.
The park will have a memorial hall, monument, dioramas, &c.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/mil/2008-04/10/content_7954022.htm
http://news.xinhuanet.com/mil/2008-04/10/content_7954022_1.htm

April 2008:
Hundreds of AVG “Flying Tigers” tombstones, removed and used to build a reservoir in 1950s, are recovered and examined.
At least 12 tombstones were Chinese personnel.

Thanks again VoyTech. A sad story but at least he ended up in an honoured grave in a little Welsh cemetery, rather than a forgotten hole in the ground in the Kolyma. Will pass on this information to the local County Archive.

VoyTech, thanks for that information about Sgt Wares. Good point about him being born in Petersburg. Probably an interesting story leading up to his presence at RAF Hawarden as late as May 44

A story he shared with thousands of Polish servicemen. There was a huge Polish community in Russia at the time he was born, and they mostly moved to Poland after the communist revolution of 1917 or after the Polish-Russian war of 1920/21. I have no details for him, but I presume he lived most of his life in Poland and in 1939 he was taken prisoner by the Soviets. After Hitler invaded the USSR Stalin had some of the Poles released. Most of the servicemen let out of the gulags needed months to recover before they were able to undergo any military training, so Polish airmen who left the USSR during 1941-42 generally didn’t start operational flying until 1944.

but this is thread creep!

Exactly!

VoyTech, thanks for that information about Sgt Wares. Good point about him being born in Petersburg. Probably an interesting story leading up to his presence at RAF Hawarden as late as May 44 but this is thread creep!

One of them originated from Leningrad, but I suspect he was Polish rather than Russian, this being a cover for family back home.

You must mean Sgt Feliks Teofil Wares, killed in Spitfire VA X4173 HX-X on 19 May 1944. Yes, he was Polish, and yes, he was born in Petersburg (it wasn’t called Leningrad until some time after he was born).

What about Leonard B. “Tuck” Smith, a Navy lieutenant on loan to Great Britain who got the US DFC for is part in the hunt for the Bismark.
In May 1941, six months before the U.S. entered the war, Smith was on air patrol near Ireland when he spotted the German pocket battleship Bismarck. His radio message to the British enabled them to locate the Bismarck.
President Roosevelt decided to lend a number of Catalinas to the British through lend-lease, then-Lt. j.g. Smith was sent to Britain to train Royal Air Force pilots.
Smith accompanied the pilots on routine patrols which explains why he was there in the first place.
26th of May 1941, Smith was in a Catalina along with a Royal Air Force pilot and crew. They were flying at an altitude of about 500 feet when Smith first saw the Prinz Eugen and as they got closer the Bismarck fired on them.
Smith got the Distinguished Flying Cross for this and since the U.S. was officially neutral, it was a risky decision to recognize Smith for his participation in a combat operation. Yet, a citation signed by Navy Secretary Frank Knox lauded Smith’s “heroism and extraordinary achievement as a volunteer observer … during an aerial search for the German pocket-battleship Bismarck.”
What happened to neutrality then?

Certainly not my area of research, other than having read some books long time ago. However:
1) I would say it’s rather understandable that the neutral US Navy/USCG/USAAC operated against German ships/submarines because the latter did attack neutral US merchant ships in convoys to Britain. Bismarck etc. were there to destroy convoys from America to Britain. America was sending stuff to Britain in these convoys and not for free. You can compare this with Swiss fighters intercepting aircraft of the fighting sides, and I am sure some of them may have been decorated for bringing down Allied or German aircraft. Neutrality doesn’t mean you cannot protect your own country’s interests.
3) I understand Smith never joined the RAF/Royal Navy, did he?

IIRC the US law at the time said more or less that you were not allowed to use your US passport to travel abroad in order to join the armed forces of a country being at war. So if you did not join the armed forces you would be OK, I think.
The “US passport” phrase was to exclude people with double citizenship, who were able to use their other passport (American Poles did that, for example).
Your question is probably wider than just about those who trained military pilots in Canada. A lot of US aircraft (and other war equipment) being sold to Britain at the time, what would be the legal situation of all those company engineers etc. who came over to assist in assembly and operation?

What about Leonard B. “Tuck” Smith, a Navy lieutenant on loan to Great Britain who got the US DFC for is part in the hunt for the Bismark.

In May 1941, six months before the U.S. entered the war, Smith was on air patrol near Ireland when he spotted the German pocket battleship Bismarck. His radio message to the British enabled them to locate the Bismarck.

President Roosevelt decided to lend a number of Catalinas to the British through lend-lease, then-Lt. j.g. Smith was sent to Britain to train Royal Air Force pilots.

Smith accompanied the pilots on routine patrols which explains why he was there in the first place.

26th of May 1941, Smith was in a Catalina along with a Royal Air Force pilot and crew. They were flying at an altitude of about 500 feet when Smith first saw the Prinz Eugen and as they got closer the Bismarck fired on them.

Smith got the Distinguished Flying Cross for this and since the U.S. was officially neutral, it was a risky decision to recognize Smith for his participation in a combat operation. Yet, a citation signed by Navy Secretary Frank Knox lauded Smith’s “heroism and extraordinary achievement as a volunteer observer … during an aerial search for the German pocket-battleship Bismarck.”

What happened to neutrality then?

Ali

I’m reluctant to be dogmatic here; however, as I understand it, anyone is free to join a foreign country’s armed forces, being technically a mercenary. If they are part of that country’s forces, they are subject to the laws and disciplines of that force and contry; not their own. They are, if captured, to be treated as a national of that country under the Geneva Convention.

However the situation of US instructors in Canada is quite different. The United States did not support or endorse its citizens working as civilians or as members of the RCAF. It was none of United States ‘business’! They could not be members of the US armed forces while the US was neutral; otherwise the US would be ‘breaking neutrality’ as you ask.

The Flying Tigers had to be mercenaries, and could not be members of the US forces (though many had been) while fighting in China, until the US joined the war, at which point the Tigers could become a US unit.

In short individuals can’t be ‘neutral’ (or not) only countries…

I’m prepared to be corrected on just about all of that, but it’s how I understand it!

Cheers / salut

James

If you join a foreign country’s armed forces and make an oath to that Country’s armed force then you are covered by the Geneva Convention as being a serviceman of that country and not a mercenary. Anybody joining the British Armed Forces has to make such an oath (that’s how British get away with the Gurkhas, they make an oath to the Queen), US Green card servicemen are most likely the same.

There are four Americans buried in the cemetery at Hawarden, all of whom died in flying accidents, three of them with the fighter OTU at the nearby airfield. This was long before Pearl Harbor. Our US friends will be pleased to know that their graves are well kept, along with those of eight other nationalities flying from the OTU. One of them originated from Leningrad, but I suspect he was Polish rather than Russian, this being a cover for family back home.

I read Derek Robinson’s Piece of Cake
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0006473334/103-6951681-6584654?v=glance&n=283155
after watching the TV series.
I admit my favourite character is Christopher “CH3” Hart III, the American who has the most combat experience in the Hurricane squadron, as he’s a Spanish Civil War veteran.

Some say we’re still paying it!

I think we still are, until the end of this year.

Some say we’re still paying it!

I think it was probably a bit easier in 1939-40,I know there is quite a bit of anti US banter on these forums but most of us realise that even before the US officially became involved in WW2 they did try to help us(I Know I Know it is always at a price!!).

And certainly from what I have read the US officials did not usually ask too many questions of men travelling to Canada..

You certainly havent been riding in my car! I get alot of crap from US border guards!!! I was called a traitor for studying air forces in Canada rather then the US…

I have read some autobiographies by US citizens who travelled to Canada to ‘join up’ and although technically they were breaking US law I doubt any of them were in much danger of arrest.I am sure right from the start that some enlightened ‘Brasshats’ would realise that the survivors of these ‘Lawbreakers’
would form a very useful cadre of operationally experienced aircrew.
When the US did go to war they put a lot of pressure on these men to join the US Forces,only a small percentage managed to stay in the RAF.
And certainly from what I have read the US officials did not usually ask too many questions of men travelling to Canada..

Ok as this thread resurfaced and I have my passport handy on page 5 of the US passport it says “Under certain circumstances, you may lose your US citizenship by performing voluntarily and with the intention to relinquish US citezenship any of the following acts….3. serving in the armed forces of a foreign government 4. accpeting employment with a foreign government…

Dave- Yes, when I am at home in Canada i keep the passport in the car as i drive across the border quite often (sometimes twice a month) and have had the unfortunate experince of driving two hours to the border and not having it! As I am in Europe for the summer it is obviusly in a much safer place!

I thought it was nice to see that the Chinese honor and remember the American vets who fought for their freedom.

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2006/08/13/2003323002

“Founder of `Flying Tiger’ unit honored”

Sunday, Aug 13, 2006,Page 4
By Max Hirsch
STAFF REPORTER , IN HUALIEN

Sixty-five years ago, a group of young Americans boarded a Dutch packet and crossed the Pacific at the invitation of Madame Chiang Kai-shek. Their passports identified them simply as teachers or farmers. If asked at the time, “Why in God’s name are you going to the Orient amid World War II?” they probably would have responded, “For sightseeing, of course.”