VP441 – the hot end

Laurie,
thanks a lot for Your time and trouble, I really appreciate it!

That´s an interesting setup and it demonstrates that racing is not, as some people say, all about warbird and engine destruction. It actually helped get VP 441 in the air!

Christer

Have just received this from Ezells. Sets out the engine make up in VP441.

OK, here’s the deal:
We have a 58 nose-case and power section driving the Shack prop. The
crank shaft is a -65 which allows the use of the two speed, two stage
-65 blower section on this particular engine. We went with a PR-58
carburetor that was used on the early Pratt and Whitney R-2800 series.
Engine shop already had carb adapters made during the development of the
Red Baron for the -65.

Also, a little background- our engine builder worked at Zeuchel’s shop
in the 70’s and ultimately bought it from Zeuchel’s widow. The -74
engine used the original fuel injection setup and apparently was not
used in the Red Baron app. According to him, this combination in VP-441
is exactly the same that was used in the Red Baron racer- save for the
custom gearing and such. Our guy also admitted that he had never seen
an -87 in person and the -65 parts are what were delivered to Zeuchel’s
by the CAF.

BR

Laurie.

Thanks guys, for the information!

Rolls-Royce adapted the Griffon 65/66 reduction gearing to fit the Griffon 58 for the Spitfire Mk.XIX’s of the BBMF. It was said to be a rather expensive venture, prohibitively so for any private individual.
This modification was, for obvious reasons, not on the agenda for VP 441.

The BBMF modified the lower cowlings for the air intake duct to fit the supercharger intake of the single stage Griffon 58. I assume that this was either less expensive than adapting a Griffon 65/66 supercharger to fit the Griffon 58 or less complicated.

If a Griffon 65 supercharger has been fitted to the Griffon 58 of VP 441, then the owner/team had other conciderations than the BBMF when that route was decided on.
Mark’s comments indicate that the BBMF route was/is the obvious one.

Christer

Mark,

Thanks for that info.

AE is checking with the engine restorers on the exact details. I’ll post as soon as I hear from him.

BR,

Laurie.

Wheels within wheels.

According to the South Marston dispatch book records – VP441 departed for RN Service with Griffon 88 17208/599813 in th hands of CPO Marshall.

This engine was clearly changed at some time in service as when SOC it was fitted with Griffon 85 20038/A486079 as recorded by inspection at Booker. The engine was not changed at Booker but I believe a couple of Shack engines were acquired for or with the deal at the time, as an economic route forward to flight.

When it arrived in the US I believe the engines including the 85 were dispatched to Dave Zeuschal Race Engines in California. Now engines in and engines out at US repair facilities are not always the same. In the back of my mind I have an idea that some of this Griffon 85 was incorporated into the Racing Mustang ‘Red Baron’ engine which was a composite Firefly Griffon 74 engine from memory. If you want the two stage supercharger and wheel house you need the 60/70 series crank case. If you have that crankcase you cannot fit the Shackleton 57/58 twin output reduction gear….but you you can, I think, fit the the reduction gear from the 85.

Wheels within wheels so to speak…some contra rotating.

Mark

Christer,

I have just learned that the blower fitted to VP441 is apparently from a Griffon 65. It seems that this was the engine fitted to the aeroplane when it went to the States. I’m still clarifying this.

It also seems likely that VP441 underwent an engine change whilst a Booker. One researcher has a Griffon 85 fitted to the airframe in 1972.

BR,

Laurie.

Thanks …… 🙂 …… !

Christer,

My understanding at the time was original to the Mk 88.

I am presently checking and will get back to you.

BR

Laurie.

Laurie,
thanks for that piece of information!

To clarify:

The answer was a Griffon 58 (ex-Shackleton of course) with an original blower.

Original to the Griffon 58 or to the Griffon 88?

Christer

Hello all!

I have searched but not found out what is actually fitted to frame five in VP441.

Is it a complete Shackleton package or is it a mix of the original (?) Griffon 88 and a Shackleton CR propeller?

Is the engine itself a hybrid?

Thanks for Your time,
Christer

Christer,

I asked Ezells 3 years ago what engine would be fitted to the completed airframe.

The answer was a Griffon 58 (ex-Shackleton of course) with an original blower. The prop, because it also came from a Shackleton and was oversize, would have to be cut down to 10 ft diameter to allow ground clearance.

As far as I am aware, there are no Griffon 88’s in existance. Anyone know any better?

BR

Laurie.