Douglas Bader Conspiracy Theory

Yes, no caving in was done. Ken contacted me, as I left a valid email address on the guestbook. Between us we have resolved things by OBJECTIVELY looking at things. Below is the transcript of mine and Kens emailing. Make of it what you will. This is posted with Kens consent, and I’m sorry I haven’t done it before.

Call it what you like, but the fact that his guestbook had such a vile personal attack was enough for me to decide that enough was enough, so when Ken contacted me, I decided to talk it through.

As he also wanted to contact Rob, I put him in touch. Rob also felt a similar way to me (and perhaps some of you). So, we are the architects of ‘caving in’.

“I am writing to you as you were the only one to provide a valid e-mail address from amongst those who made a concerted and cowardly attack on my website Guest Book.”

I am in the habit of always posting my details, as I always believe in what I say. However, many people do not post e-mail addresses anywhere publicly as they do get ‘harvested’ by the people who send all the spam about viagra and penis extensions (does anybody buy them??). Having rigourous anti-spam filters running, I do not concern myself with that. Arthurs email will probably work if slightly altered.

“One of your friends sent such a disgusting message that it has been brought to the attention of the AFP (Australian Federal Police) as unlike the UK it would seem, Australia has far more stringent rules governing the internet and transgressors are very quickly located and dealt with. If you did not see this foul anonymous and cowardly message and would like to see it, let me know and I will copy it to you, but be sure your wife if you are married and children if any, do not get to see this message.”

I concur about the content of that message. I don’t like it at all, and find it very puerile and nasty. I can’t actually think who it can be, but don’t personally think it was one of the participants in the thread, as it’s not the kind of thing that any of them would write in my opinion. I suspect it is more likely one of the silent readers – but who? I have no idea. (I am married with 1 child and another on the way by the way).

“But to get on, that is not why I am writing to you actually. Your messages on the forum puzzle me somewhat because at times your appear to be a mature man and at other times lapse into similar character as your friends on your FLYPAST website and Forums.”

Ah yes. Well, initially I confess to just joining in the banter. THEN, however, I decided that as you had the decency to come and defend yourself in person, I had to do you the honour of keeping an open mind on the subject. Game over, starting to look for possibilities. I was also hoping that others may do the same. After enough pages of having theoretical supposition / questions of possibilities either ignored or scornfully addressed, I felt that enough was enough, you didn’t want my help, and were too busy defending from the bull**** to keep an open mind on what one of us was offering. Plus the arrogance and aggression you were directing at all and sundry (I don’t judge that, I merely point it out). Not strictly your fault, but I decided then that that pointed to the story having no substance. Hence I reverted back to ****-taking. Right or wrong? I don’t know. But I have my limits, as do you.

“May I say again, I did not come to your forum to promote myself and my theories but to defend myself from a bunch of seeming hooligans running riot and who it was obvious had no knowledge of my story but were just intent on having fun and slagging someone who REALLY has something interesting to say. Would you or any person with normal feelings not have reacted in the way I did? Then I am questioned like some criminal and when I try to answer am again ridiculed and shouted down. Great fun seemed to be generated by my pleas for the members to read my story THEN ask questions but to no avail.”

Indeed. Your story was being discussed (or rather pulled apart) and you came to defend yourself. I would have done the same. However, the method in which you did this (rudeness and aggression, empty threats, ignoring of requests for proof etc) was just ‘easy meat’ for those who didn’t want to acknowledge the possibility. And what is the possibility? That one of our most revered national heroes was being, once again, vilified with no chance to defend himself, and that he was also being effectively accused of treason – a capital offence until quite recently. Bear in mind that some of the people on this board actually did know Bader. Incidentally, I did read the story before my first post, and read it again after I started looking for possibilities. While I do honestly doubt that it happened (I am not calling you a liar, but I do believe you could easily have been mistaken, a victim of deception or a prank, or something else) there is always the possibility that it did in fact happen. But without proof (which I do hope you can find) then your story will always be doubted. Bader has been the subject of attacks before, ‘Widge’ Gleed was recently ‘outed’ as a homosexual. Nice easy targets that should perhaps have more reverence directed at them. That ****es me off, and most of the rest of us – and probably you too.

“I believe it may have been you that asked when I worked at the Stork Hotel, another source of fun, you know margarine he! he, Stork Margarine, get it! Ha Ha- I mean really from grown men?”

I asked when you worked there, as I forgot it was in the narrative. However, my reasons were to give me a time-frame to look into, to examine when Bader could possibly have made the trip. I didn’t ask what he had on his toast, I can’t recall who did (and he had a specific reason as it happens) but Stork Margarine, you have to admit, was a pretty funny answer to what I at the time thought was a joke.

“Then I think you suggested that knowing these dates would enable you (a supreme authority on the matter?) to look for “windows of opportunity” as to when Bader could possibly have made his visit to England. You must give me some credit Snapper, if you had read my narrative you would have found a list of Bader’s movements whilst a POW sent to me by PRO and you would have read how we were able to almost pinpoint precisely when this could have happened. I asked you to read the narrative and again was abused. Why not for the hell of, read it some time?”

I’m not a supreme authority on Bader – in fact he’s not somebody I’ve ever really bothered about too much as he doesn’t fit in with my particular research. However, I am a serious researcher / archivist and historian with a large archive of original documentation, and some knowledge of how AHB /MOD / PRO / PRC works and where to look. Bear in mind that a minimum 6 hours a day is spent by myself in recording and researching one particular squadron. I won’t bore you with the details, but one from last month was a pilot by the name of Ian ‘Hack’ Russell. All I had was the CWGC entry, and details of his death. The request was to clear up his nationality (was he American or Australian). Through 2 days work I not only found out enough for a 3 page biography, plus cleared up his nationality, but I also managed to contact a family member and access plenty of supporting documentation on his service. And that’s without even leaving the small town in which I live. So, take my word for it, I do know what I’m doing regarding WW2 RAF researching. Oh, and I have already collaborated on one book that was published, and am midway through a second (the story of two pilots) that I had only the very barest details on to begin with.

My website, which gives a flavour: http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/609photos

Additionally, I have read various parts of your story, not just the Bader Enigma, and find it very interesting, and entertainingly written. Published, I think it would be well received. If you doubt me, how would I have known that you had been diagnosed with neurasthenia?

“Be that as it may, I did make a peace offering if you recall and it was wrecked by a response from some person who calls himself Moggy and so a golden opportunity to have sensible discussion was lost forever on your forum. But I suspect that is not really what they/you? wanted –You all just wanted to wind up and take the **** out of a sincere and disabled 80 year old WW2 Veteran with a very strange TRUE story to relate – but so be it, it’s no loss to me, we will continue our quest until I guess I die, but others will then continue in my place.”

I would have liked to have seen a good discussion, and co-operation from all. I think because of the way it started, it was not likely to happen though. I think a lot of people would have. Indeed I hope you do continue to search for the truth of the story, and I do honestly wish you success in it. As for taking the ****, it was out of the story rather than you at first. Unfortunately, once people started on you it took a whole other twist. Blame on both sides. It truly is no loss to you though, so I would say forget about it – it’s not worth getting more upset about. Write them off as hooligans if you wish and carry on. And hopefully everyone involved will do the same. My attitude is ambivalent – I don’t care what you say on the Bader Enigma as it is not relevant to my work, and doesn’t change my life in any way. Insular I know, but hey – I’m on the outside. And I did enjoy the narrative.

“Just a few last words, as you are the only person I have written to since I had to close down my Guest Book (sad) and remove my e-mail contact from my site (also sad) to prevent your friends from depositing more invective and filth in my Guest Book for reasons that totally escape me. “

You can surely edit the guestbook to remove those comments no? Print off a copy first of course. It should be easy enough. I can’t advise how as I haven’t operated one. You may as well repost your email address too, as I doubt anyone will bother to email nasty comments. It is sad, and I don’t think anything is to be gained by anyone in writing comments such as some of them were. Mine was valid – I’m sure you agree to some extent, or else you wouldn’t have contacted me back. Kev35 is also sincere (and a VERY knowledgeable and respected researcher and author-in-progress). I can’t recall the other ones that may or may not have been sincere. But flawed research is flawed research. The only 3 engined Junkers transport, for example, was the Ju52. Ju88’s had two, and were bombers (though they could perhaps be adapted to carry a passenger, and were fast – a Ju52 would have been shot down in no time over the Channel).

“Since your Webmaster had the good sense to close down your Bader Enigma thread I have been back looking (I shall never contribute again, I promise you) and note with utter disbelief that some of your friends are now proclaiming that they are actually PROUD of what they have done – my God, I feel so sorry for these poor misguided people as there is no hope for them and God only knows what the future holds for them and our country. I now feel a little ashamed when I tell people I am British, so sad.”

I’m glad too that he closed it down, although for sheer entertainment value it was addictive!! As to opinions on it, I find it amusing that I am mentioned by ‘name’, but merely amusing. I am not proud of anything to do with this affair personally. (Snapper, by the way, is a long-held nickname relating to my email address and occupation of photographer). Funnily enough, the people on the board ARE proud of being British, and ARE proud of this country and its heritage, and ARE proud of the contributions made by veterans of previous generations. Perhaps that is why they have been so scornful of perceived slating of one particular man who cannot defend himself. And most of them are also concerned at what is happening to this country. But leave that to the politicians – they can **** things up perfectly well without our help.

“One of my friends I see, has been back taking you and your band of brothers to task for what you have done to me both on and off the forum and it is quite amusing to see that some of your members are already claiming that “Kenny is Back! Ha ha ha!” Please tell your friends that I am not back, and wild horses would never get me back into that little mini-madhouse and, that is why you are getting this letter.

Max? Yes, Good for Stefan for fighting the corner. We messaged each other on Friday for a little while – he’s a good guy, a nice guy, and he thinks the world of you. I like him, and agree with everything he’s written in your defence. I also admire the work he has been doing on the Colditz story. They claim you are back for the simple reason that when you visit to observe, your name is visible on the screen at the top. To fix that, go to: user menu – edit my profile – invisibility mode (or something similar).

“I observe in some of the Mark II posts that a few of you seem to be having second thoughts about what you have been doing and tend to want to blame the whole thing on some group of a rabble element that has attached itself to your forum.”

Perhaps. I find the whole incident regrettable personally, and was keeping an open mind until getting ****ed off. Second thoughts? Not for me. Initial thoughts still, without the sarcasm/**** taking, and with weariness at the continued slagging which is unneccesary.

“One of your friends goes so far as to suggest some sort of a deal! WHAT? No one including me in their right minds does deals with terrorists (now I’ve got the spelling right and have removed another source of amusement for your friends) I am told that if I remove mention and all details of your “Club” from my website you/he/they will not published to the web the transcripts of Bader Enigma thread Mark I.”

Deal? I can’t see its important enough to be bothering with further. It doesn’t concern me personally of what is written where or by whom. You can post a paragraph calling me a pink-clad transvestite with a penchant for rubber lingerie and a taste for ripping rabbits to pieces with pliers on your site if you like. The net is not renowned for impartiality or truth. As for terrorism, well, dunno if I agree with the definition, but I do agree with your feelings behind the use of the word. Who cares if the whole thread is published or not? Who the hell is going to read it? But what about your posts on the BBC at War website? Those are equally irresponsible and could be branded in the same light.

“Are you people really serious? I WELCOME ANY PUBLICATION TO THE WEB OF THE WHOLE THREAD FROM THE FIRST TO LAST COMMENT WITH NO, REPEAT NO DELETIONS – ALL OF MY POSTS AND ALL REPEAT ALL OF YOURS AND YOUR FRIENDS POSTS. Perhaps as an interesting footnote I will give you copies of your and your friend’s posts to my guestbook including the one written by someone who is so sick he should be in an institution poor man.”

I have copies anyway. “You people” implies a group together on this against you. If there were such a one, I wouldn’t be part of it. My thoughts and responses are mine and mine alone. I can’t speak for any of them. Can’t see what the point of posting it would be, and can’t see what interest it would be.

“SO, NO DEALS, and as someone once said “Publish and be damned!” but please have the courage to publish the complete story as mentioned above.”

If you want me to post it on a thread, I shall. Would you prefer with or without my comments on? Either way, if you want to, I am more than happy to do so. And I will invite ONLY constructive posts.

“Many other snippets are now surfacing as “explanations” for the disgusting behaviour of your “Band of Brothers” and I have not the time or inclination to debate with you and for about the tenth time suggest once more – READ the narrative (if you really want to) before jumping to conclusions and making yourselves look so silly.”

I read it, as I said. Explaining others behaviour? That’s for them to do. I trust you can read my explanation of my own for what it is, and perhaps understand who I am and where I stand. I don’t have anything against you personally.

“I hope one day that your friends at the forum take a good long hard look at their on-going behaviour as, if you have read my website updates, you will see that they/you now have THREE strikes against them.”

Three strikes and we’re out. Perhaps they will, perhaps they won’t. Perhaps it’ll be taken seriously, perhaps not. That’s for each individual.

“Finally, if you wish to post this ENTIRE letter to the FLYPAST forum, please do, you have my blessing. Also if any of you decide to discuss in a rational manner my TRUE story, an e-mail link has been restored on my site so please contact me through it. A word in your ear, it is now being monitored so words should be carefully chosen.”

It’s up to you if I post it, again, with or without my comments inserted? Glad that you have restored an email link – as for monitoring, who cares? To repeat your earlier phrase, ‘publish and be damned’

“Things really move quickly in the world of cyberspace and before you have had the chance to read my first message – here I am again!”

I was in bed anyway.

“A silent visit to the FLYPAST site revealed (to my old mind at least), some indications of remorse creeping in here and there from those who have been mercilessly slagging me over my story that nobody yet, seems to have got the point of.”

So what is the point of the story? Merely that you saw someone you believe to have been Bader in 1942? Or more that we should have seen? The rest is theory, and as such is interesting. Remorse? Perhaps. Bear in mind that the tide of war was turning in 1942. We hadn’t been on the run in England since 1940 and the successful defence from invasion by ‘the Few’. 1941 saw daylight sweeps over France on a large scale, often with the Luftwaffe refusing to take-off – knowing they would be ripped apart. Plus Germany was now fighting on 3 fronts and policing how many countries? If we’d had what we had in 1944, we could have pulled off the invasion then. 1942 saw further victories and progression, and loads of Yanks arriving. Why would Bader come as an agent for Germany? Lets go lateral – imagine German High Command sent Bader to relate THEIR feelings, rather than Hitler’s. We know what the Wehrmacht brass thought of Hitler. Perhaps that would be more agreeable to Bader. Supposition again.

“Robbo made a very civilised posting that I have course have latched onto and am intending to post as part of another section to my on-going narrative, unless of course ROBBO requests that I do not do this. Also I have discovered that GOOGLE who it seems have a soft spot for my Bader Enigma story and give me excellent prominence have found the FLYPAST melee and have already up and running the first 4 pages. Contrary to what you and or ROBBO may think, I am delighted they have done this and as you would expect, am anxious to append details to my website as I believe there is enough there to convince any thinking person of what was taking place here, and I think you know what I mean.”

I’m sure Robbo wouldn’t mind at all. Google automatically caches webpages, so I wouldn’t read anything into it. They’ll no doubt disappear too after a while. Perhaps it would be worth copying and pasting it to your site instead.

“I am attaching as a word document a rough draft of what I am thinking of posting to my site. Perhaps if you know how to be in touch with your friend ROBBO I think you can get it to him and he can respond through my website or your good self, I don’t really mind.”

I’ll send him a message. If you want to contact him directluy, at the bottom of any post of his there is a button labelled PM or personal message. Click that and you can send up to 1000 words.

“If Ken’s happy to call it quits and return to square one, I’m happy to forget all about it and leave it at that. I won’t put the transcript of the thread on the web if he removes the statements about this forum from his. Fair deal? Ken?”

Fair enough, he justs wants it all over and done with too.

“Dear Robbo and friends,
I like any sensible man or Government DO NOT MAKE DEALS with what could be called Cyber- terrorists or any other type of standover merchants.
Before embarking on your (collective) wholly destructive quest to smear the reputation of one who served his country in WW2 and is now 60% disabled because of that participation, you should have checked my background more thoroughly both during the war and after the war, I may be 80 but can and will hold my own with anyone.
If you want some kind of a deal however, how about this, A full apology posted to the FLYPAST forum as well as a copy supplied to me and my two assistants in Germany and Belgium. Should this appeal to you, the only promises I will make are as follows, I will not post your apology to my website, I will remove all reference to the FLYPAST FORUM and simply state “This matter has been resolved” and I will refrain from pointing my website readers toward a GOOGLE site that has already published the first four pages of The Douglas Bader thread. These pages do I believe show very well what was going on here and who were the aggressors.
Ken Williams”

Yep, I’ll send it to him. I’ll let him answer that one.

The reply:

Dear Rob and Mark,

I have two e-mails to respond to this morning, one from you Rob and one from Mark that runs to eight A4 pages, so if you both don’t mind, I will try to answer both at the same time to avoid going over the same ground twice!

One thing seems to have emerged from all this and let’s call it, “The Flypast Forum Incident” and this gives me great cause for concern. Very early in my Bader essay I make it very clear I believe, that I have the greatest respect for Douglas Bader even though on two occasions I personally found him rather unsociable.

As my story develops, and no doubt to you guys, my pathetic attempts at researching the subject, various references to Bader emerge, for example the BBC’s John Behague’s e-mail to me and quotes from the British press, book reviews, but most of all the Obituaries for Alex (Jock ) Ross (Bader’s batman) and it’s damaging references (from the horses mouth) to Douglas Bader. The more I dug the more alarmed I became at what I was finding and, you will see that I make reference to the possibility that some readers may get the impression that this whole exercise is designed solely to destroy his reputation. NOT SO!

I have access to hand written letters (verifiable) from ex-PoW’s who were in the same camp/camps as Bader. I would NEVER publish these anywhere including my website as they discuss Bader’s behaviour and attitude in a manner that is best left hidden for ever. These reports are many and varied I assure you.

I started out to obtain corroborating evidence that on my two encounters with Bader that I found him to be less then friendly. It turns out that I am right and, I could fill many pages with evidence to confirm this. As it turns out, Douglas Bader was not always it seems, the “knight in shining armour” that most kids thought he was. It is not ME saying this, you can read it in my narrative or go away and do your own research and get the same results.

The point I am making here is simply that I am just as dismayed as you probably are that many people are prepared to now say that Bader was a man of many personas and if in researching my story this comes out, I will mention it when it is relevant to my story but, I will NOT whitewash or conceal flaws in the Douglas Bader legend just because it IS Douglas Bader.

My view of Douglas Bader is still that he was a great man and, when the results of my Enigma are eventually revealed I am hoping earnestly that he will be shown as an even greater hero. However, if perchance something is revealed that is not palatable, it will be very sad but beyond my control. So gentlemen, please dispel from your thoughts that I am attempting to destroy this legend I am not, but MUST always search for and report the truth as it emerges.

Perhaps the second most annoying (for me) thing about my Bader narrative is that practically everyone who contacts me about the story misses the most important point of the story and that is, that when Bader came to the Stork Hotel sometime in 1942 probably in the range July,August, I had NO IDEA that he was according to all the rules of logic and commonsense supposed to be incarcerated in Colditz – I was NOT aware of this and frankly did not really care as I was living in the middle of a war when things were happening every minute of every day that very few of us knew about. Then to compound this seemingly ridiculous situation, when I spoke on the telephone all those years later with Bader when he was in Sydney I was still UNAWARE of the incredible mysterious story that I have been and am still deeply involved with!

If I had been making a big fantasy and a load of bull**** about all this perhaps some guru can tell ME why I would have waited 60 years to bring this matter into the public domain? So, why is it now suddenly and so visibly in the public domain? Once more I have to repeat “it’s all in the narrative” an expression that all the “FFI” participants came to hate when I constantly answered so many questions with that response – but then in the heat of battle, who the hell listens to reason anyway?

I will explain briefly as I have had to do so many times. I was approached in August last year by a writer (he tells me) from Bath, nice place have been there a few times, who asked me many questions about my chapter that includes about 200 words on my encounter with Bader that, I might add, is never again mentioned in the rest of my book.
He accepted what I could tell him that was just a repeat of what is in the book and then sent me a bombshell to tell me that at the time I claimed Bader visited the Stork Hotel he was in Colditz and whilst he did not call me a liar, asked me to explain – the rest is now set in cement in my narrative for all to read.

I do invite would be readers that they have a choice, to believe me or at least have an open mind, or if they like, regard me as a Nutter and go off and have a pint or two and forget it! Most people tend to go into it with open minds I am happy to say and from this basic simply beginning I now have many people in all parts of the world who have enough faith in both me and human nature to become helpers in my search for the truth.

It is such a shame that the “FFI” did not give me the chance to expand my story as I feel that with some of the expertise that resides on “FFI” there was more than a good chance that my Enigma could have had the benefit of some expert knowledge and who knows, solved much quicker. But believe me or don’t, I did meet Douglas Bader where and when I say I did, it is true fellahs!

Thank you for the in depth messages from you both. I will not attempt to go through every point and answer yet again as I think it has been done to death and, although I REALLY do hate to say it once again, it’s all there in the text and the sub-text for anyone who wishes to read this, I admit strange story.

I hope you will understand that my interest in the Forum has now dissipated and I now see no real value in coming back as myself or under another name as I don’t believe that kind of environment can sustain serious debate.

The matter as far as I am concerned is now over due to both of your gracious, honest and earnest attempts to explain in some way what really went wrong here. I will be also be gracious and remove ASAP all reference to the “FFI” from my website but sad to say my guest book is now, if you will pardon the expression “knackered” beyond repair and is gone for ever!

Whilst because of the length of your e-mails, I have not answered a specific point you have raised please send again in “bite sized” chunks and I will respond.

In the matter of the full transcript of the proceedings of the “FFI” if anyone wants to publish it to the web in FULL I do not have any objections but feel it will be to no good purpose, but that’s your decision.

Thank you for your comments

Best wishes

Kenneth Williams (No! no relation to the other one)

I have been too busy to reply to Ken as yet, but I feel that he was polite, courteous, and sincere in all that he wrote. And I hope that you feel the same about my responses. When I write my response I’ll add it to here as well.

Now, if anyone wants to comment objectively, thats fine. Flame me by all means, but start a flame war or personal attack on Ken or Max, and you’re on your own – it would be totally pointless and childish. Bear in mind that this is NOT a game any more, I am not playing, and I’ll send the boys round..

I have read many long threads but this is the best. Got many friends like you and they behave in same manner. Thanks for sharing your experience

Yes, no caving in was done. Ken contacted me, as I left a valid email address on the guestbook. Between us we have resolved things by OBJECTIVELY looking at things. Below is the transcript of mine and Kens emailing. Make of it what you will. This is posted with Kens consent, and I’m sorry I haven’t done it before.

Call it what you like, but the fact that his guestbook had such a vile personal attack was enough for me to decide that enough was enough, so when Ken contacted me, I decided to talk it through.

As he also wanted to contact Rob, I put him in touch. Rob also felt a similar way to me (and perhaps some of you). So, we are the architects of ‘caving in’.

“I am writing to you as you were the only one to provide a valid e-mail address from amongst those who made a concerted and cowardly attack on my website Guest Book.”

I am in the habit of always posting my details, as I always believe in what I say. However, many people do not post e-mail addresses anywhere publicly as they do get ‘harvested’ by the people who send all the spam about viagra and penis extensions (does anybody buy them??). Having rigourous anti-spam filters running, I do not concern myself with that. Arthurs email will probably work if slightly altered.

“One of your friends sent such a disgusting message that it has been brought to the attention of the AFP (Australian Federal Police) as unlike the UK it would seem, Australia has far more stringent rules governing the internet and transgressors are very quickly located and dealt with. If you did not see this foul anonymous and cowardly message and would like to see it, let me know and I will copy it to you, but be sure your wife if you are married and children if any, do not get to see this message.”

I concur about the content of that message. I don’t like it at all, and find it very puerile and nasty. I can’t actually think who it can be, but don’t personally think it was one of the participants in the thread, as it’s not the kind of thing that any of them would write in my opinion. I suspect it is more likely one of the silent readers – but who? I have no idea. (I am married with 1 child and another on the way by the way).

“But to get on, that is not why I am writing to you actually. Your messages on the forum puzzle me somewhat because at times your appear to be a mature man and at other times lapse into similar character as your friends on your FLYPAST website and Forums.”

Ah yes. Well, initially I confess to just joining in the banter. THEN, however, I decided that as you had the decency to come and defend yourself in person, I had to do you the honour of keeping an open mind on the subject. Game over, starting to look for possibilities. I was also hoping that others may do the same. After enough pages of having theoretical supposition / questions of possibilities either ignored or scornfully addressed, I felt that enough was enough, you didn’t want my help, and were too busy defending from the bull**** to keep an open mind on what one of us was offering. Plus the arrogance and aggression you were directing at all and sundry (I don’t judge that, I merely point it out). Not strictly your fault, but I decided then that that pointed to the story having no substance. Hence I reverted back to ****-taking. Right or wrong? I don’t know. But I have my limits, as do you.

“May I say again, I did not come to your forum to promote myself and my theories but to defend myself from a bunch of seeming hooligans running riot and who it was obvious had no knowledge of my story but were just intent on having fun and slagging someone who REALLY has something interesting to say. Would you or any person with normal feelings not have reacted in the way I did? Then I am questioned like some criminal and when I try to answer am again ridiculed and shouted down. Great fun seemed to be generated by my pleas for the members to read my story THEN ask questions but to no avail.”

Indeed. Your story was being discussed (or rather pulled apart) and you came to defend yourself. I would have done the same. However, the method in which you did this (rudeness and aggression, empty threats, ignoring of requests for proof etc) was just ‘easy meat’ for those who didn’t want to acknowledge the possibility. And what is the possibility? That one of our most revered national heroes was being, once again, vilified with no chance to defend himself, and that he was also being effectively accused of treason – a capital offence until quite recently. Bear in mind that some of the people on this board actually did know Bader. Incidentally, I did read the story before my first post, and read it again after I started looking for possibilities. While I do honestly doubt that it happened (I am not calling you a liar, but I do believe you could easily have been mistaken, a victim of deception or a prank, or something else) there is always the possibility that it did in fact happen. But without proof (which I do hope you can find) then your story will always be doubted. Bader has been the subject of attacks before, ‘Widge’ Gleed was recently ‘outed’ as a homosexual. Nice easy targets that should perhaps have more reverence directed at them. That ****es me off, and most of the rest of us – and probably you too.

“I believe it may have been you that asked when I worked at the Stork Hotel, another source of fun, you know margarine he! he, Stork Margarine, get it! Ha Ha- I mean really from grown men?”

I asked when you worked there, as I forgot it was in the narrative. However, my reasons were to give me a time-frame to look into, to examine when Bader could possibly have made the trip. I didn’t ask what he had on his toast, I can’t recall who did (and he had a specific reason as it happens) but Stork Margarine, you have to admit, was a pretty funny answer to what I at the time thought was a joke.

“Then I think you suggested that knowing these dates would enable you (a supreme authority on the matter?) to look for “windows of opportunity” as to when Bader could possibly have made his visit to England. You must give me some credit Snapper, if you had read my narrative you would have found a list of Bader’s movements whilst a POW sent to me by PRO and you would have read how we were able to almost pinpoint precisely when this could have happened. I asked you to read the narrative and again was abused. Why not for the hell of, read it some time?”

I’m not a supreme authority on Bader – in fact he’s not somebody I’ve ever really bothered about too much as he doesn’t fit in with my particular research. However, I am a serious researcher / archivist and historian with a large archive of original documentation, and some knowledge of how AHB /MOD / PRO / PRC works and where to look. Bear in mind that a minimum 6 hours a day is spent by myself in recording and researching one particular squadron. I won’t bore you with the details, but one from last month was a pilot by the name of Ian ‘Hack’ Russell. All I had was the CWGC entry, and details of his death. The request was to clear up his nationality (was he American or Australian). Through 2 days work I not only found out enough for a 3 page biography, plus cleared up his nationality, but I also managed to contact a family member and access plenty of supporting documentation on his service. And that’s without even leaving the small town in which I live. So, take my word for it, I do know what I’m doing regarding WW2 RAF researching. Oh, and I have already collaborated on one book that was published, and am midway through a second (the story of two pilots) that I had only the very barest details on to begin with.

My website, which gives a flavour: http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/609photos

Additionally, I have read various parts of your story, not just the Bader Enigma, and find it very interesting, and entertainingly written. Published, I think it would be well received. If you doubt me, how would I have known that you had been diagnosed with neurasthenia?

“Be that as it may, I did make a peace offering if you recall and it was wrecked by a response from some person who calls himself Moggy and so a golden opportunity to have sensible discussion was lost forever on your forum. But I suspect that is not really what they/you? wanted –You all just wanted to wind up and take the **** out of a sincere and disabled 80 year old WW2 Veteran with a very strange TRUE story to relate – but so be it, it’s no loss to me, we will continue our quest until I guess I die, but others will then continue in my place.”

I would have liked to have seen a good discussion, and co-operation from all. I think because of the way it started, it was not likely to happen though. I think a lot of people would have. Indeed I hope you do continue to search for the truth of the story, and I do honestly wish you success in it. As for taking the ****, it was out of the story rather than you at first. Unfortunately, once people started on you it took a whole other twist. Blame on both sides. It truly is no loss to you though, so I would say forget about it – it’s not worth getting more upset about. Write them off as hooligans if you wish and carry on. And hopefully everyone involved will do the same. My attitude is ambivalent – I don’t care what you say on the Bader Enigma as it is not relevant to my work, and doesn’t change my life in any way. Insular I know, but hey – I’m on the outside. And I did enjoy the narrative.

“Just a few last words, as you are the only person I have written to since I had to close down my Guest Book (sad) and remove my e-mail contact from my site (also sad) to prevent your friends from depositing more invective and filth in my Guest Book for reasons that totally escape me. “

You can surely edit the guestbook to remove those comments no? Print off a copy first of course. It should be easy enough. I can’t advise how as I haven’t operated one. You may as well repost your email address too, as I doubt anyone will bother to email nasty comments. It is sad, and I don’t think anything is to be gained by anyone in writing comments such as some of them were. Mine was valid – I’m sure you agree to some extent, or else you wouldn’t have contacted me back. Kev35 is also sincere (and a VERY knowledgeable and respected researcher and author-in-progress). I can’t recall the other ones that may or may not have been sincere. But flawed research is flawed research. The only 3 engined Junkers transport, for example, was the Ju52. Ju88’s had two, and were bombers (though they could perhaps be adapted to carry a passenger, and were fast – a Ju52 would have been shot down in no time over the Channel).

“Since your Webmaster had the good sense to close down your Bader Enigma thread I have been back looking (I shall never contribute again, I promise you) and note with utter disbelief that some of your friends are now proclaiming that they are actually PROUD of what they have done – my God, I feel so sorry for these poor misguided people as there is no hope for them and God only knows what the future holds for them and our country. I now feel a little ashamed when I tell people I am British, so sad.”

I’m glad too that he closed it down, although for sheer entertainment value it was addictive!! As to opinions on it, I find it amusing that I am mentioned by ‘name’, but merely amusing. I am not proud of anything to do with this affair personally. (Snapper, by the way, is a long-held nickname relating to my email address and occupation of photographer). Funnily enough, the people on the board ARE proud of being British, and ARE proud of this country and its heritage, and ARE proud of the contributions made by veterans of previous generations. Perhaps that is why they have been so scornful of perceived slating of one particular man who cannot defend himself. And most of them are also concerned at what is happening to this country. But leave that to the politicians – they can **** things up perfectly well without our help.

“One of my friends I see, has been back taking you and your band of brothers to task for what you have done to me both on and off the forum and it is quite amusing to see that some of your members are already claiming that “Kenny is Back! Ha ha ha!” Please tell your friends that I am not back, and wild horses would never get me back into that little mini-madhouse and, that is why you are getting this letter.

Max? Yes, Good for Stefan for fighting the corner. We messaged each other on Friday for a little while – he’s a good guy, a nice guy, and he thinks the world of you. I like him, and agree with everything he’s written in your defence. I also admire the work he has been doing on the Colditz story. They claim you are back for the simple reason that when you visit to observe, your name is visible on the screen at the top. To fix that, go to: user menu – edit my profile – invisibility mode (or something similar).

“I observe in some of the Mark II posts that a few of you seem to be having second thoughts about what you have been doing and tend to want to blame the whole thing on some group of a rabble element that has attached itself to your forum.”

Perhaps. I find the whole incident regrettable personally, and was keeping an open mind until getting ****ed off. Second thoughts? Not for me. Initial thoughts still, without the sarcasm/**** taking, and with weariness at the continued slagging which is unneccesary.

“One of your friends goes so far as to suggest some sort of a deal! WHAT? No one including me in their right minds does deals with terrorists (now I’ve got the spelling right and have removed another source of amusement for your friends) I am told that if I remove mention and all details of your “Club” from my website you/he/they will not published to the web the transcripts of Bader Enigma thread Mark I.”

Deal? I can’t see its important enough to be bothering with further. It doesn’t concern me personally of what is written where or by whom. You can post a paragraph calling me a pink-clad transvestite with a penchant for rubber lingerie and a taste for ripping rabbits to pieces with pliers on your site if you like. The net is not renowned for impartiality or truth. As for terrorism, well, dunno if I agree with the definition, but I do agree with your feelings behind the use of the word. Who cares if the whole thread is published or not? Who the hell is going to read it? But what about your posts on the BBC at War website? Those are equally irresponsible and could be branded in the same light.

“Are you people really serious? I WELCOME ANY PUBLICATION TO THE WEB OF THE WHOLE THREAD FROM THE FIRST TO LAST COMMENT WITH NO, REPEAT NO DELETIONS – ALL OF MY POSTS AND ALL REPEAT ALL OF YOURS AND YOUR FRIENDS POSTS. Perhaps as an interesting footnote I will give you copies of your and your friend’s posts to my guestbook including the one written by someone who is so sick he should be in an institution poor man.”

I have copies anyway. “You people” implies a group together on this against you. If there were such a one, I wouldn’t be part of it. My thoughts and responses are mine and mine alone. I can’t speak for any of them. Can’t see what the point of posting it would be, and can’t see what interest it would be.

“SO, NO DEALS, and as someone once said “Publish and be damned!” but please have the courage to publish the complete story as mentioned above.”

If you want me to post it on a thread, I shall. Would you prefer with or without my comments on? Either way, if you want to, I am more than happy to do so. And I will invite ONLY constructive posts.

“Many other snippets are now surfacing as “explanations” for the disgusting behaviour of your “Band of Brothers” and I have not the time or inclination to debate with you and for about the tenth time suggest once more – READ the narrative (if you really want to) before jumping to conclusions and making yourselves look so silly.”

I read it, as I said. Explaining others behaviour? That’s for them to do. I trust you can read my explanation of my own for what it is, and perhaps understand who I am and where I stand. I don’t have anything against you personally.

“I hope one day that your friends at the forum take a good long hard look at their on-going behaviour as, if you have read my website updates, you will see that they/you now have THREE strikes against them.”

Three strikes and we’re out. Perhaps they will, perhaps they won’t. Perhaps it’ll be taken seriously, perhaps not. That’s for each individual.

“Finally, if you wish to post this ENTIRE letter to the FLYPAST forum, please do, you have my blessing. Also if any of you decide to discuss in a rational manner my TRUE story, an e-mail link has been restored on my site so please contact me through it. A word in your ear, it is now being monitored so words should be carefully chosen.”

It’s up to you if I post it, again, with or without my comments inserted? Glad that you have restored an email link – as for monitoring, who cares? To repeat your earlier phrase, ‘publish and be damned’

“Things really move quickly in the world of cyberspace and before you have had the chance to read my first message – here I am again!”

I was in bed anyway.

“A silent visit to the FLYPAST site revealed (to my old mind at least), some indications of remorse creeping in here and there from those who have been mercilessly slagging me over my story that nobody yet, seems to have got the point of.”

So what is the point of the story? Merely that you saw someone you believe to have been Bader in 1942? Or more that we should have seen? The rest is theory, and as such is interesting. Remorse? Perhaps. Bear in mind that the tide of war was turning in 1942. We hadn’t been on the run in England since 1940 and the successful defence from invasion by ‘the Few’. 1941 saw daylight sweeps over France on a large scale, often with the Luftwaffe refusing to take-off – knowing they would be ripped apart. Plus Germany was now fighting on 3 fronts and policing how many countries? If we’d had what we had in 1944, we could have pulled off the invasion then. 1942 saw further victories and progression, and loads of Yanks arriving. Why would Bader come as an agent for Germany? Lets go lateral – imagine German High Command sent Bader to relate THEIR feelings, rather than Hitler’s. We know what the Wehrmacht brass thought of Hitler. Perhaps that would be more agreeable to Bader. Supposition again.

“Robbo made a very civilised posting that I have course have latched onto and am intending to post as part of another section to my on-going narrative, unless of course ROBBO requests that I do not do this. Also I have discovered that GOOGLE who it seems have a soft spot for my Bader Enigma story and give me excellent prominence have found the FLYPAST melee and have already up and running the first 4 pages. Contrary to what you and or ROBBO may think, I am delighted they have done this and as you would expect, am anxious to append details to my website as I believe there is enough there to convince any thinking person of what was taking place here, and I think you know what I mean.”

I’m sure Robbo wouldn’t mind at all. Google automatically caches webpages, so I wouldn’t read anything into it. They’ll no doubt disappear too after a while. Perhaps it would be worth copying and pasting it to your site instead.

“I am attaching as a word document a rough draft of what I am thinking of posting to my site. Perhaps if you know how to be in touch with your friend ROBBO I think you can get it to him and he can respond through my website or your good self, I don’t really mind.”

I’ll send him a message. If you want to contact him directluy, at the bottom of any post of his there is a button labelled PM or personal message. Click that and you can send up to 1000 words.

“If Ken’s happy to call it quits and return to square one, I’m happy to forget all about it and leave it at that. I won’t put the transcript of the thread on the web if he removes the statements about this forum from his. Fair deal? Ken?”

Fair enough, he justs wants it all over and done with too.

“Dear Robbo and friends,
I like any sensible man or Government DO NOT MAKE DEALS with what could be called Cyber- terrorists or any other type of standover merchants.
Before embarking on your (collective) wholly destructive quest to smear the reputation of one who served his country in WW2 and is now 60% disabled because of that participation, you should have checked my background more thoroughly both during the war and after the war, I may be 80 but can and will hold my own with anyone.
If you want some kind of a deal however, how about this, A full apology posted to the FLYPAST forum as well as a copy supplied to me and my two assistants in Germany and Belgium. Should this appeal to you, the only promises I will make are as follows, I will not post your apology to my website, I will remove all reference to the FLYPAST FORUM and simply state “This matter has been resolved” and I will refrain from pointing my website readers toward a GOOGLE site that has already published the first four pages of The Douglas Bader thread. These pages do I believe show very well what was going on here and who were the aggressors.
Ken Williams”

Yep, I’ll send it to him. I’ll let him answer that one.

The reply:

Dear Rob and Mark,

I have two e-mails to respond to this morning, one from you Rob and one from Mark that runs to eight A4 pages, so if you both don’t mind, I will try to answer both at the same time to avoid going over the same ground twice!

One thing seems to have emerged from all this and let’s call it, “The Flypast Forum Incident” and this gives me great cause for concern. Very early in my Bader essay I make it very clear I believe, that I have the greatest respect for Douglas Bader even though on two occasions I personally found him rather unsociable.

As my story develops, and no doubt to you guys, my pathetic attempts at researching the subject, various references to Bader emerge, for example the BBC’s John Behague’s e-mail to me and quotes from the British press, book reviews, but most of all the Obituaries for Alex (Jock ) Ross (Bader’s batman) and it’s damaging references (from the horses mouth) to Douglas Bader. The more I dug the more alarmed I became at what I was finding and, you will see that I make reference to the possibility that some readers may get the impression that this whole exercise is designed solely to destroy his reputation. NOT SO!

I have access to hand written letters (verifiable) from ex-PoW’s who were in the same camp/camps as Bader. I would NEVER publish these anywhere including my website as they discuss Bader’s behaviour and attitude in a manner that is best left hidden for ever. These reports are many and varied I assure you.

I started out to obtain corroborating evidence that on my two encounters with Bader that I found him to be less then friendly. It turns out that I am right and, I could fill many pages with evidence to confirm this. As it turns out, Douglas Bader was not always it seems, the “knight in shining armour” that most kids thought he was. It is not ME saying this, you can read it in my narrative or go away and do your own research and get the same results.

The point I am making here is simply that I am just as dismayed as you probably are that many people are prepared to now say that Bader was a man of many personas and if in researching my story this comes out, I will mention it when it is relevant to my story but, I will NOT whitewash or conceal flaws in the Douglas Bader legend just because it IS Douglas Bader.

My view of Douglas Bader is still that he was a great man and, when the results of my Enigma are eventually revealed I am hoping earnestly that he will be shown as an even greater hero. However, if perchance something is revealed that is not palatable, it will be very sad but beyond my control. So gentlemen, please dispel from your thoughts that I am attempting to destroy this legend I am not, but MUST always search for and report the truth as it emerges.

Perhaps the second most annoying (for me) thing about my Bader narrative is that practically everyone who contacts me about the story misses the most important point of the story and that is, that when Bader came to the Stork Hotel sometime in 1942 probably in the range July,August, I had NO IDEA that he was according to all the rules of logic and commonsense supposed to be incarcerated in Colditz – I was NOT aware of this and frankly did not really care as I was living in the middle of a war when things were happening every minute of every day that very few of us knew about. Then to compound this seemingly ridiculous situation, when I spoke on the telephone all those years later with Bader when he was in Sydney I was still UNAWARE of the incredible mysterious story that I have been and am still deeply involved with!

If I had been making a big fantasy and a load of bull**** about all this perhaps some guru can tell ME why I would have waited 60 years to bring this matter into the public domain? So, why is it now suddenly and so visibly in the public domain? Once more I have to repeat “it’s all in the narrative” an expression that all the “FFI” participants came to hate when I constantly answered so many questions with that response – but then in the heat of battle, who the hell listens to reason anyway?

I will explain briefly as I have had to do so many times. I was approached in August last year by a writer (he tells me) from Bath, nice place have been there a few times, who asked me many questions about my chapter that includes about 200 words on my encounter with Bader that, I might add, is never again mentioned in the rest of my book.
He accepted what I could tell him that was just a repeat of what is in the book and then sent me a bombshell to tell me that at the time I claimed Bader visited the Stork Hotel he was in Colditz and whilst he did not call me a liar, asked me to explain – the rest is now set in cement in my narrative for all to read.

I do invite would be readers that they have a choice, to believe me or at least have an open mind, or if they like, regard me as a Nutter and go off and have a pint or two and forget it! Most people tend to go into it with open minds I am happy to say and from this basic simply beginning I now have many people in all parts of the world who have enough faith in both me and human nature to become helpers in my search for the truth.

It is such a shame that the “FFI” did not give me the chance to expand my story as I feel that with some of the expertise that resides on “FFI” there was more than a good chance that my Enigma could have had the benefit of some expert knowledge and who knows, solved much quicker. But believe me or don’t, I did meet Douglas Bader where and when I say I did, it is true fellahs!

Thank you for the in depth messages from you both. I will not attempt to go through every point and answer yet again as I think it has been done to death and, although I REALLY do hate to say it once again, it’s all there in the text and the sub-text for anyone who wishes to read this, I admit strange story.

I hope you will understand that my interest in the Forum has now dissipated and I now see no real value in coming back as myself or under another name as I don’t believe that kind of environment can sustain serious debate.

The matter as far as I am concerned is now over due to both of your gracious, honest and earnest attempts to explain in some way what really went wrong here. I will be also be gracious and remove ASAP all reference to the “FFI” from my website but sad to say my guest book is now, if you will pardon the expression “knackered” beyond repair and is gone for ever!

Whilst because of the length of your e-mails, I have not answered a specific point you have raised please send again in “bite sized” chunks and I will respond.

In the matter of the full transcript of the proceedings of the “FFI” if anyone wants to publish it to the web in FULL I do not have any objections but feel it will be to no good purpose, but that’s your decision.

Thank you for your comments

Best wishes

Kenneth Williams (No! no relation to the other one)

I have been too busy to reply to Ken as yet, but I feel that he was polite, courteous, and sincere in all that he wrote. And I hope that you feel the same about my responses. When I write my response I’ll add it to here as well.

Now, if anyone wants to comment objectively, thats fine. Flame me by all means, but start a flame war or personal attack on Ken or Max, and you’re on your own – it would be totally pointless and childish. Bear in mind that this is NOT a game any more, I am not playing, and I’ll send the boys round..

I have read many long threads but this is the best. Got many friends like you and they behave in same manner. Thanks for sharing your experience

Originally posted by Moggy C
Mmmmmmmmmmm mmm gnmmm mgmmmm mmmn mmnm grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr! 😡

Moggy

will someone ring the rspca please 😉

And Moggy isn’t too bad either. Even if he does work in advertising…

Originally posted by Snapper
He’s a good chap, whatever is thought from last week.

Mmmmmmmmmmm mmm gnmmm mgmmmm mmmn mmnm grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr! 😡

Moggy

“fault lies on both sides here and Ken’s behaviour is hardly faultless.”

That’s what I meant to say, but couldn’t think of.
:p

I actually loved the thread – it was bloody addictive!! It’s just that it was at the expense of people. Hey-ho, it’s all under the bridge now. And it was Ken who emailed me – all i did was respond with the same effort that he had. One thing I will point out, as an aside, is that I have a very good friend (one of my best friends) who is in his eighties, a veteran, and swings from really excitable child manner to really snotty grumpy ******* in the heat of the moment, and fires off unbelievable letters and emails. Age does more than wear your bones thin – it wears patience too. Though Robbo and I resolved the situation, it was ONLY because Ken approached us with similar intentions (as you can see from the email texts). He’s a good chap, whatever is thought from last week.

Heads not right tonight, sorry if I rambled. I don’t think i’ve had enough to eat or drink today. Funny times in the snapper household right now. One bloody thing after another. And my peanut brittle hasn’t arrived yet.

Snapper, i think my points do have some relevance, Ken from the very beginning expected us to believe the story and was quick to patronise anybody who reaosnably disagreed, fair point though that some were unreasonable. Ken did use his war service AND his age as if this meant everyone had to listen and sit back and believe, anyone who he expected to be younger was treated like didnt have a clue.

“”And you of course would not have been “at times patronising, threatening and offensive.” “””””

No i dont believe i would, i would NEVER threaten someone or deliberately patronise them. To use and old cliche, two wrongs dont make a right, to sum up what i mean i shall jsut say that fault lies on both sides here and Ken’s behaviour is hardly faultless.

Anyway, i DEFINATELY agree that this matter has come to an end, it was a very sad week when the conspiracy theory had some of the highest number of replies ever seen and other more relevant threads were ignored,

many thanks for the reply Snapper and your work to resolve the situation and also i wish Ken every success in finding proof for his story.

Best Regards, Steve 🙂

That’s not really relevant Steve. I know DFC winners who are very understated, and I know some who are very overstated. People, not veterans, have different ways of expressing themselves. A primadonna can win the VC, as can someone as quiet as a mouse. That’s not what this thread is about.

A reminder of what Ken walked into, from the first page:

“What would the internet be without these sad acts, eh”

“This is such a load of rubbish! The poor guy got caught in a lie and now has to invent this huge conspiracy to explain himself.”

“Sounds like this guy has an overactive imagination.”

“I’ve been having a quick read through this rubbish”

“Gave up reading halfway through. I think this guy has escaped from reality”

“This guy is in need of professional help!”

And you of course would not have been “at times patronising, threatening and offensive.” I would have told you all to **** off, personally. And I don’t think “People who frequent this forum are mostly respectful and grateful” is relevant to this argument, though true, mostly.

That’s all it was, an argument. A distasteful one at that. So instead of further arguing / bitching / slagging, lets forget about it, yeah?

Mark
(ps, i’m not having a go at you, just using your words to make a point about why perhaps we should stop pointing fingers or being righteous. Including me.)

Originally posted by Hatton
However, bringing up the fact of your age or war service whenever you go on the defensive is a little tiresome.

steve hatton.

I used to know a chap, name of Len Cox. It was quite a while after I met him that I discovered (from someone else) that he was a decorated RAF wartime veteran. It turned out that he was the Flt. Sgt. Cox of Bruneval raid fame. He was happy to talk about it, but he wasn’t a lineshooter and only if you brought it up first. It’s my firm view that those who have the most to shout about, generally shout the least.

Len passed over a couple of years back – RIP.

To be honest im glad ken has gone. His initial posts on the infamous mark one thread were at times patronising, threatening and offensive. If you disagreed with him reasonably as some did at first he just told us to go and read the narrative ‘properly’ or accused us of not being old enough. With a story such as his it was bound to attract a few little jokes ASWELL as serious consideration.

Ken may wish to take the moral high gorund on this one but im glad that his messages and the ‘intrigue’ her brought to the forum are gone. By the way Ken, being a world war two veteran i think earn’s you due respect. People who frequent this forum are mostly respectful and grateful. However, bringing up the fact of your age or war service whenever you go on the defensive is a little tiresome.

This is only my second post i think on the subject of the Bader Enigma, may it rest in peace.

steve hatton.

Originally posted by Moggy C
Mmmmm mmmm mmmm mmm mmm mmmm Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr! 😡

I didn’t get involved in the thread concerned as I missed it completely. I can understand there is quite a head of steam in various quarters because of things that were said, but may be it is now time to put it to bed and concentrate on far more pleasurable things like Leg Ends, Moth Rallies, G-VFWE etc etc. Not trying to stir at all. I enjoy these fora (and the chat therein)and don’t want to see the generally very harmonious relations between the “normal” contributors harmed in any way. I’ve never met any of you – yet, but feel that I already know you – long may it continue!

I have watched this thread and the others unfold with interest, it is a magnanimous gesture on behalf of Snapper to be the peacemaker in this very heated discussion, I applaud his attitude as I do too to Mr Ken Williams and others in drawing a line under this subject.

I suppose I carry the burden of inviting Ken to this forum initially to make a riposte, so blame me if you all wish to do so.

As others have said let this subject be laid to rest for the sake of decorum……………………….

Thanks for the diplomats for doing the behind-the-scenes-work here. Some affairs just need a little bit of ‘nothing to see here, move on’.

Mmmmm mmmm mmmm mmm mmm mmmm Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr! 😡

Reckon we should all just leave it be. I’m not bothered either way whether Ken is right about Bader – makes no odds to me. We won the war, so what does it matter?

Phew!

Probably best I stay quiet. 🙁

Moggy
Cyber-Terrapin

Yes, no caving in was done. Ken contacted me, as I left a valid email address on the guestbook. Between us we have resolved things by OBJECTIVELY looking at things. Below is the transcript of mine and Kens emailing. Make of it what you will. This is posted with Kens consent, and I’m sorry I haven’t done it before.

Call it what you like, but the fact that his guestbook had such a vile personal attack was enough for me to decide that enough was enough, so when Ken contacted me, I decided to talk it through.

As he also wanted to contact Rob, I put him in touch. Rob also felt a similar way to me (and perhaps some of you). So, we are the architects of ‘caving in’.

“I am writing to you as you were the only one to provide a valid e-mail address from amongst those who made a concerted and cowardly attack on my website Guest Book.”

I am in the habit of always posting my details, as I always believe in what I say. However, many people do not post e-mail addresses anywhere publicly as they do get ‘harvested’ by the people who send all the spam about viagra and penis extensions (does anybody buy them??). Having rigourous anti-spam filters running, I do not concern myself with that. Arthurs email will probably work if slightly altered.

“One of your friends sent such a disgusting message that it has been brought to the attention of the AFP (Australian Federal Police) as unlike the UK it would seem, Australia has far more stringent rules governing the internet and transgressors are very quickly located and dealt with. If you did not see this foul anonymous and cowardly message and would like to see it, let me know and I will copy it to you, but be sure your wife if you are married and children if any, do not get to see this message.”

I concur about the content of that message. I don’t like it at all, and find it very puerile and nasty. I can’t actually think who it can be, but don’t personally think it was one of the participants in the thread, as it’s not the kind of thing that any of them would write in my opinion. I suspect it is more likely one of the silent readers – but who? I have no idea. (I am married with 1 child and another on the way by the way).

“But to get on, that is not why I am writing to you actually. Your messages on the forum puzzle me somewhat because at times your appear to be a mature man and at other times lapse into similar character as your friends on your FLYPAST website and Forums.”

Ah yes. Well, initially I confess to just joining in the banter. THEN, however, I decided that as you had the decency to come and defend yourself in person, I had to do you the honour of keeping an open mind on the subject. Game over, starting to look for possibilities. I was also hoping that others may do the same. After enough pages of having theoretical supposition / questions of possibilities either ignored or scornfully addressed, I felt that enough was enough, you didn’t want my help, and were too busy defending from the bull**** to keep an open mind on what one of us was offering. Plus the arrogance and aggression you were directing at all and sundry (I don’t judge that, I merely point it out). Not strictly your fault, but I decided then that that pointed to the story having no substance. Hence I reverted back to ****-taking. Right or wrong? I don’t know. But I have my limits, as do you.

“May I say again, I did not come to your forum to promote myself and my theories but to defend myself from a bunch of seeming hooligans running riot and who it was obvious had no knowledge of my story but were just intent on having fun and slagging someone who REALLY has something interesting to say. Would you or any person with normal feelings not have reacted in the way I did? Then I am questioned like some criminal and when I try to answer am again ridiculed and shouted down. Great fun seemed to be generated by my pleas for the members to read my story THEN ask questions but to no avail.”

Indeed. Your story was being discussed (or rather pulled apart) and you came to defend yourself. I would have done the same. However, the method in which you did this (rudeness and aggression, empty threats, ignoring of requests for proof etc) was just ‘easy meat’ for those who didn’t want to acknowledge the possibility. And what is the possibility? That one of our most revered national heroes was being, once again, vilified with no chance to defend himself, and that he was also being effectively accused of treason – a capital offence until quite recently. Bear in mind that some of the people on this board actually did know Bader. Incidentally, I did read the story before my first post, and read it again after I started looking for possibilities. While I do honestly doubt that it happened (I am not calling you a liar, but I do believe you could easily have been mistaken, a victim of deception or a prank, or something else) there is always the possibility that it did in fact happen. But without proof (which I do hope you can find) then your story will always be doubted. Bader has been the subject of attacks before, ‘Widge’ Gleed was recently ‘outed’ as a homosexual. Nice easy targets that should perhaps have more reverence directed at them. That ****es me off, and most of the rest of us – and probably you too.

“I believe it may have been you that asked when I worked at the Stork Hotel, another source of fun, you know margarine he! he, Stork Margarine, get it! Ha Ha- I mean really from grown men?”

I asked when you worked there, as I forgot it was in the narrative. However, my reasons were to give me a time-frame to look into, to examine when Bader could possibly have made the trip. I didn’t ask what he had on his toast, I can’t recall who did (and he had a specific reason as it happens) but Stork Margarine, you have to admit, was a pretty funny answer to what I at the time thought was a joke.

“Then I think you suggested that knowing these dates would enable you (a supreme authority on the matter?) to look for “windows of opportunity” as to when Bader could possibly have made his visit to England. You must give me some credit Snapper, if you had read my narrative you would have found a list of Bader’s movements whilst a POW sent to me by PRO and you would have read how we were able to almost pinpoint precisely when this could have happened. I asked you to read the narrative and again was abused. Why not for the hell of, read it some time?”

I’m not a supreme authority on Bader – in fact he’s not somebody I’ve ever really bothered about too much as he doesn’t fit in with my particular research. However, I am a serious researcher / archivist and historian with a large archive of original documentation, and some knowledge of how AHB /MOD / PRO / PRC works and where to look. Bear in mind that a minimum 6 hours a day is spent by myself in recording and researching one particular squadron. I won’t bore you with the details, but one from last month was a pilot by the name of Ian ‘Hack’ Russell. All I had was the CWGC entry, and details of his death. The request was to clear up his nationality (was he American or Australian). Through 2 days work I not only found out enough for a 3 page biography, plus cleared up his nationality, but I also managed to contact a family member and access plenty of supporting documentation on his service. And that’s without even leaving the small town in which I live. So, take my word for it, I do know what I’m doing regarding WW2 RAF researching. Oh, and I have already collaborated on one book that was published, and am midway through a second (the story of two pilots) that I had only the very barest details on to begin with.

My website, which gives a flavour: http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/609photos

Additionally, I have read various parts of your story, not just the Bader Enigma, and find it very interesting, and entertainingly written. Published, I think it would be well received. If you doubt me, how would I have known that you had been diagnosed with neurasthenia?

“Be that as it may, I did make a peace offering if you recall and it was wrecked by a response from some person who calls himself Moggy and so a golden opportunity to have sensible discussion was lost forever on your forum. But I suspect that is not really what they/you? wanted –You all just wanted to wind up and take the **** out of a sincere and disabled 80 year old WW2 Veteran with a very strange TRUE story to relate – but so be it, it’s no loss to me, we will continue our quest until I guess I die, but others will then continue in my place.”

I would have liked to have seen a good discussion, and co-operation from all. I think because of the way it started, it was not likely to happen though. I think a lot of people would have. Indeed I hope you do continue to search for the truth of the story, and I do honestly wish you success in it. As for taking the ****, it was out of the story rather than you at first. Unfortunately, once people started on you it took a whole other twist. Blame on both sides. It truly is no loss to you though, so I would say forget about it – it’s not worth getting more upset about. Write them off as hooligans if you wish and carry on. And hopefully everyone involved will do the same. My attitude is ambivalent – I don’t care what you say on the Bader Enigma as it is not relevant to my work, and doesn’t change my life in any way. Insular I know, but hey – I’m on the outside. And I did enjoy the narrative.

“Just a few last words, as you are the only person I have written to since I had to close down my Guest Book (sad) and remove my e-mail contact from my site (also sad) to prevent your friends from depositing more invective and filth in my Guest Book for reasons that totally escape me. “

You can surely edit the guestbook to remove those comments no? Print off a copy first of course. It should be easy enough. I can’t advise how as I haven’t operated one. You may as well repost your email address too, as I doubt anyone will bother to email nasty comments. It is sad, and I don’t think anything is to be gained by anyone in writing comments such as some of them were. Mine was valid – I’m sure you agree to some extent, or else you wouldn’t have contacted me back. Kev35 is also sincere (and a VERY knowledgeable and respected researcher and author-in-progress). I can’t recall the other ones that may or may not have been sincere. But flawed research is flawed research. The only 3 engined Junkers transport, for example, was the Ju52. Ju88’s had two, and were bombers (though they could perhaps be adapted to carry a passenger, and were fast – a Ju52 would have been shot down in no time over the Channel).

“Since your Webmaster had the good sense to close down your Bader Enigma thread I have been back looking (I shall never contribute again, I promise you) and note with utter disbelief that some of your friends are now proclaiming that they are actually PROUD of what they have done – my God, I feel so sorry for these poor misguided people as there is no hope for them and God only knows what the future holds for them and our country. I now feel a little ashamed when I tell people I am British, so sad.”

I’m glad too that he closed it down, although for sheer entertainment value it was addictive!! As to opinions on it, I find it amusing that I am mentioned by ‘name’, but merely amusing. I am not proud of anything to do with this affair personally. (Snapper, by the way, is a long-held nickname relating to my email address and occupation of photographer). Funnily enough, the people on the board ARE proud of being British, and ARE proud of this country and its heritage, and ARE proud of the contributions made by veterans of previous generations. Perhaps that is why they have been so scornful of perceived slating of one particular man who cannot defend himself. And most of them are also concerned at what is happening to this country. But leave that to the politicians – they can **** things up perfectly well without our help.

“One of my friends I see, has been back taking you and your band of brothers to task for what you have done to me both on and off the forum and it is quite amusing to see that some of your members are already claiming that “Kenny is Back! Ha ha ha!” Please tell your friends that I am not back, and wild horses would never get me back into that little mini-madhouse and, that is why you are getting this letter.

Max? Yes, Good for Stefan for fighting the corner. We messaged each other on Friday for a little while – he’s a good guy, a nice guy, and he thinks the world of you. I like him, and agree with everything he’s written in your defence. I also admire the work he has been doing on the Colditz story. They claim you are back for the simple reason that when you visit to observe, your name is visible on the screen at the top. To fix that, go to: user menu – edit my profile – invisibility mode (or something similar).

“I observe in some of the Mark II posts that a few of you seem to be having second thoughts about what you have been doing and tend to want to blame the whole thing on some group of a rabble element that has attached itself to your forum.”

Perhaps. I find the whole incident regrettable personally, and was keeping an open mind until getting ****ed off. Second thoughts? Not for me. Initial thoughts still, without the sarcasm/**** taking, and with weariness at the continued slagging which is unneccesary.

“One of your friends goes so far as to suggest some sort of a deal! WHAT? No one including me in their right minds does deals with terrorists (now I’ve got the spelling right and have removed another source of amusement for your friends) I am told that if I remove mention and all details of your “Club” from my website you/he/they will not published to the web the transcripts of Bader Enigma thread Mark I.”

Deal? I can’t see its important enough to be bothering with further. It doesn’t concern me personally of what is written where or by whom. You can post a paragraph calling me a pink-clad transvestite with a penchant for rubber lingerie and a taste for ripping rabbits to pieces with pliers on your site if you like. The net is not renowned for impartiality or truth. As for terrorism, well, dunno if I agree with the definition, but I do agree with your feelings behind the use of the word. Who cares if the whole thread is published or not? Who the hell is going to read it? But what about your posts on the BBC at War website? Those are equally irresponsible and could be branded in the same light.

“Are you people really serious? I WELCOME ANY PUBLICATION TO THE WEB OF THE WHOLE THREAD FROM THE FIRST TO LAST COMMENT WITH NO, REPEAT NO DELETIONS – ALL OF MY POSTS AND ALL REPEAT ALL OF YOURS AND YOUR FRIENDS POSTS. Perhaps as an interesting footnote I will give you copies of your and your friend’s posts to my guestbook including the one written by someone who is so sick he should be in an institution poor man.”

I have copies anyway. “You people” implies a group together on this against you. If there were such a one, I wouldn’t be part of it. My thoughts and responses are mine and mine alone. I can’t speak for any of them. Can’t see what the point of posting it would be, and can’t see what interest it would be.

“SO, NO DEALS, and as someone once said “Publish and be damned!” but please have the courage to publish the complete story as mentioned above.”

If you want me to post it on a thread, I shall. Would you prefer with or without my comments on? Either way, if you want to, I am more than happy to do so. And I will invite ONLY constructive posts.

“Many other snippets are now surfacing as “explanations” for the disgusting behaviour of your “Band of Brothers” and I have not the time or inclination to debate with you and for about the tenth time suggest once more – READ the narrative (if you really want to) before jumping to conclusions and making yourselves look so silly.”

I read it, as I said. Explaining others behaviour? That’s for them to do. I trust you can read my explanation of my own for what it is, and perhaps understand who I am and where I stand. I don’t have anything against you personally.

“I hope one day that your friends at the forum take a good long hard look at their on-going behaviour as, if you have read my website updates, you will see that they/you now have THREE strikes against them.”

Three strikes and we’re out. Perhaps they will, perhaps they won’t. Perhaps it’ll be taken seriously, perhaps not. That’s for each individual.

“Finally, if you wish to post this ENTIRE letter to the FLYPAST forum, please do, you have my blessing. Also if any of you decide to discuss in a rational manner my TRUE story, an e-mail link has been restored on my site so please contact me through it. A word in your ear, it is now being monitored so words should be carefully chosen.”

It’s up to you if I post it, again, with or without my comments inserted? Glad that you have restored an email link – as for monitoring, who cares? To repeat your earlier phrase, ‘publish and be damned’

“Things really move quickly in the world of cyberspace and before you have had the chance to read my first message – here I am again!”

I was in bed anyway.

“A silent visit to the FLYPAST site revealed (to my old mind at least), some indications of remorse creeping in here and there from those who have been mercilessly slagging me over my story that nobody yet, seems to have got the point of.”

So what is the point of the story? Merely that you saw someone you believe to have been Bader in 1942? Or more that we should have seen? The rest is theory, and as such is interesting. Remorse? Perhaps. Bear in mind that the tide of war was turning in 1942. We hadn’t been on the run in England since 1940 and the successful defence from invasion by ‘the Few’. 1941 saw daylight sweeps over France on a large scale, often with the Luftwaffe refusing to take-off – knowing they would be ripped apart. Plus Germany was now fighting on 3 fronts and policing how many countries? If we’d had what we had in 1944, we could have pulled off the invasion then. 1942 saw further victories and progression, and loads of Yanks arriving. Why would Bader come as an agent for Germany? Lets go lateral – imagine German High Command sent Bader to relate THEIR feelings, rather than Hitler’s. We know what the Wehrmacht brass thought of Hitler. Perhaps that would be more agreeable to Bader. Supposition again.

“Robbo made a very civilised posting that I have course have latched onto and am intending to post as part of another section to my on-going narrative, unless of course ROBBO requests that I do not do this. Also I have discovered that GOOGLE who it seems have a soft spot for my Bader Enigma story and give me excellent prominence have found the FLYPAST melee and have already up and running the first 4 pages. Contrary to what you and or ROBBO may think, I am delighted they have done this and as you would expect, am anxious to append details to my website as I believe there is enough there to convince any thinking person of what was taking place here, and I think you know what I mean.”

I’m sure Robbo wouldn’t mind at all. Google automatically caches webpages, so I wouldn’t read anything into it. They’ll no doubt disappear too after a while. Perhaps it would be worth copying and pasting it to your site instead.

“I am attaching as a word document a rough draft of what I am thinking of posting to my site. Perhaps if you know how to be in touch with your friend ROBBO I think you can get it to him and he can respond through my website or your good self, I don’t really mind.”

I’ll send him a message. If you want to contact him directluy, at the bottom of any post of his there is a button labelled PM or personal message. Click that and you can send up to 1000 words.

“If Ken’s happy to call it quits and return to square one, I’m happy to forget all about it and leave it at that. I won’t put the transcript of the thread on the web if he removes the statements about this forum from his. Fair deal? Ken?”

Fair enough, he justs wants it all over and done with too.

“Dear Robbo and friends,
I like any sensible man or Government DO NOT MAKE DEALS with what could be called Cyber- terrorists or any other type of standover merchants.
Before embarking on your (collective) wholly destructive quest to smear the reputation of one who served his country in WW2 and is now 60% disabled because of that participation, you should have checked my background more thoroughly both during the war and after the war, I may be 80 but can and will hold my own with anyone.
If you want some kind of a deal however, how about this, A full apology posted to the FLYPAST forum as well as a copy supplied to me and my two assistants in Germany and Belgium. Should this appeal to you, the only promises I will make are as follows, I will not post your apology to my website, I will remove all reference to the FLYPAST FORUM and simply state “This matter has been resolved” and I will refrain from pointing my website readers toward a GOOGLE site that has already published the first four pages of The Douglas Bader thread. These pages do I believe show very well what was going on here and who were the aggressors.
Ken Williams”

Yep, I’ll send it to him. I’ll let him answer that one.

The reply:

Dear Rob and Mark,

I have two e-mails to respond to this morning, one from you Rob and one from Mark that runs to eight A4 pages, so if you both don’t mind, I will try to answer both at the same time to avoid going over the same ground twice!

One thing seems to have emerged from all this and let’s call it, “The Flypast Forum Incident” and this gives me great cause for concern. Very early in my Bader essay I make it very clear I believe, that I have the greatest respect for Douglas Bader even though on two occasions I personally found him rather unsociable.

As my story develops, and no doubt to you guys, my pathetic attempts at researching the subject, various references to Bader emerge, for example the BBC’s John Behague’s e-mail to me and quotes from the British press, book reviews, but most of all the Obituaries for Alex (Jock ) Ross (Bader’s batman) and it’s damaging references (from the horses mouth) to Douglas Bader. The more I dug the more alarmed I became at what I was finding and, you will see that I make reference to the possibility that some readers may get the impression that this whole exercise is designed solely to destroy his reputation. NOT SO!

I have access to hand written letters (verifiable) from ex-PoW’s who were in the same camp/camps as Bader. I would NEVER publish these anywhere including my website as they discuss Bader’s behaviour and attitude in a manner that is best left hidden for ever. These reports are many and varied I assure you.

I started out to obtain corroborating evidence that on my two encounters with Bader that I found him to be less then friendly. It turns out that I am right and, I could fill many pages with evidence to confirm this. As it turns out, Douglas Bader was not always it seems, the “knight in shining armour” that most kids thought he was. It is not ME saying this, you can read it in my narrative or go away and do your own research and get the same results.

The point I am making here is simply that I am just as dismayed as you probably are that many people are prepared to now say that Bader was a man of many personas and if in researching my story this comes out, I will mention it when it is relevant to my story but, I will NOT whitewash or conceal flaws in the Douglas Bader legend just because it IS Douglas Bader.

My view of Douglas Bader is still that he was a great man and, when the results of my Enigma are eventually revealed I am hoping earnestly that he will be shown as an even greater hero. However, if perchance something is revealed that is not palatable, it will be very sad but beyond my control. So gentlemen, please dispel from your thoughts that I am attempting to destroy this legend I am not, but MUST always search for and report the truth as it emerges.

Perhaps the second most annoying (for me) thing about my Bader narrative is that practically everyone who contacts me about the story misses the most important point of the story and that is, that when Bader came to the Stork Hotel sometime in 1942 probably in the range July,August, I had NO IDEA that he was according to all the rules of logic and commonsense supposed to be incarcerated in Colditz – I was NOT aware of this and frankly did not really care as I was living in the middle of a war when things were happening every minute of every day that very few of us knew about. Then to compound this seemingly ridiculous situation, when I spoke on the telephone all those years later with Bader when he was in Sydney I was still UNAWARE of the incredible mysterious story that I have been and am still deeply involved with!

If I had been making a big fantasy and a load of bull**** about all this perhaps some guru can tell ME why I would have waited 60 years to bring this matter into the public domain? So, why is it now suddenly and so visibly in the public domain? Once more I have to repeat “it’s all in the narrative” an expression that all the “FFI” participants came to hate when I constantly answered so many questions with that response – but then in the heat of battle, who the hell listens to reason anyway?

I will explain briefly as I have had to do so many times. I was approached in August last year by a writer (he tells me) from Bath, nice place have been there a few times, who asked me many questions about my chapter that includes about 200 words on my encounter with Bader that, I might add, is never again mentioned in the rest of my book.
He accepted what I could tell him that was just a repeat of what is in the book and then sent me a bombshell to tell me that at the time I claimed Bader visited the Stork Hotel he was in Colditz and whilst he did not call me a liar, asked me to explain – the rest is now set in cement in my narrative for all to read.

I do invite would be readers that they have a choice, to believe me or at least have an open mind, or if they like, regard me as a Nutter and go off and have a pint or two and forget it! Most people tend to go into it with open minds I am happy to say and from this basic simply beginning I now have many people in all parts of the world who have enough faith in both me and human nature to become helpers in my search for the truth.

It is such a shame that the “FFI” did not give me the chance to expand my story as I feel that with some of the expertise that resides on “FFI” there was more than a good chance that my Enigma could have had the benefit of some expert knowledge and who knows, solved much quicker. But believe me or don’t, I did meet Douglas Bader where and when I say I did, it is true fellahs!

Thank you for the in depth messages from you both. I will not attempt to go through every point and answer yet again as I think it has been done to death and, although I REALLY do hate to say it once again, it’s all there in the text and the sub-text for anyone who wishes to read this, I admit strange story.

I hope you will understand that my interest in the Forum has now dissipated and I now see no real value in coming back as myself or under another name as I don’t believe that kind of environment can sustain serious debate.

The matter as far as I am concerned is now over due to both of your gracious, honest and earnest attempts to explain in some way what really went wrong here. I will be also be gracious and remove ASAP all reference to the “FFI” from my website but sad to say my guest book is now, if you will pardon the expression “knackered” beyond repair and is gone for ever!

Whilst because of the length of your e-mails, I have not answered a specific point you have raised please send again in “bite sized” chunks and I will respond.

In the matter of the full transcript of the proceedings of the “FFI” if anyone wants to publish it to the web in FULL I do not have any objections but feel it will be to no good purpose, but that’s your decision.

Thank you for your comments

Best wishes

Kenneth Williams (No! no relation to the other one)

I have been too busy to reply to Ken as yet, but I feel that he was polite, courteous, and sincere in all that he wrote. And I hope that you feel the same about my responses. When I write my response I’ll add it to here as well.

Now, if anyone wants to comment objectively, thats fine. Flame me by all means, but start a flame war or personal attack on Ken or Max, and you’re on your own – it would be totally pointless and childish. Bear in mind that this is NOT a game any more, I am not playing, and I’ll send the boys round..

Who says anyone did anything? Seems like a neat way out for Mr Williams, and a line drawn under the lot.

So… Who caved in?:eek:

Flood.