Help from all the warbird identification experts on this forum

Before the complete change over to the small screen we are all familiar with some pilots actaually cut this abortion back to something more like that seen years later on the Machi 200 & Fiat G50 fighters

Hi Ant n’ all,
Sorry about the confusion – I was tired when I wrote the post!

I didn’t mean the diffeerence between the SE-5 and 5a was the cockpit config – my lack of clarity.

Also, thanks to Papa for posting the scan; that’s the ‘canopy’ I was thinking of – it was referred to as a ‘glasshouse’ in contemporary reports, and it’s a lot more than a ‘windscreen’ but if you re-read my post I didn’t say it was ‘enclosed’ but ‘open at the rear’ which this certainly is – though more ‘open’ that I recalled.

As you say Ant, we live n’ learn (Well some of us do – others just bang on in the face of all evidence…)

Another good book on the SE – is ‘Aircraft of the Royal Aircraft Factory’ by Paul R Hare – Crowood. – one of ther best books, and highly recomended about the quality of the RAF Aircraft and the politics they suffered.
Cheers
James

Cheers PapaL,we learn something new everyday.:) Glad it wasn’t adopted as standard,it looks hideous!

Here’s a quick scan of the photo I mentioned, the canopy was only semi-enclosed and intended to protect the pilot while attempting to load the Lewis gun or clear stoppages on the Vickers.

Page 95 of Putnam’s “The British Fighter since 1912” has a photo of the first production SE5, A4845 with the canopy.

” The SE5 originally ame with a ‘glasshouse’ canopy which was very unpopular with the pilots; and was usually removed – it slid forwards and IIRC was open at the rear. It became the SE5a, and that didn’t have the canopy, which on the SE5 was often removed in service by the pilots. Lots of variant cockpit arrangements existed, and I think the headrest missing setup was one of the factory versions; though, again, lots og headrests were removed in service.”

The SE.5 had an enclosed canopy??This is news to me.I know it had a substantial and very unpopular glass windscreen,but I didn’t think it ever had a canopy.The factory windscreen caused quite a bit of drag and was also extremely sharp on top,excellent for cutting your head open on in a forced landing!The small one-piece winscreens you usually see on SE’s were a field mod,as were things like the design of headrest and the armament fit.The ace Albert Ball was seriously disappointed with the SE.5’s after his nimble little Neuport 17,so he had all sorts of things removed,including the headrest and the Lewis gun on the top wing.
I’d also heard differently about the differences between the SE.5 and the SE.5a-I always thought it was the powerplant which made the difference,with one version powered by the Hispano-Suiza and the other by the Wollesey Viper.

If my memory serves me correctly, the bomb aimer’s (bomardier I suppose, to be more accurate) plexiglass blister was quite heavily framed on the “E” model but frameless in the “F” and “G” models. I have always relied on this distinguishing feature to decide wheter I was looking at an “E” or “F”. The “G” was more easily distinguished becuase of the chin turret and the fact that most were completed in natural metal finishes.

I’m pretty sure also the SE5s came with or without headrests.

Hi Peter,

The B-17 is probably 42-30243, a B-17F-95-BO, as she was the subject of several factory pictures, displaying the external bomb racks.

Cheers,

Laurent

I’ll go with SE5/5a for the first one but as to the second one how any one can definitely say it is an F model is beyond me as you would need to see the relative positions of the port and starboard waist guns. The F was the first to have the waist gun positions staggered so could the give away be that the one visible in the pic is too far back to be an E?

Thanks Guys

I really appreciate the help with this mystery. I think Ill hang onto them ..
peter

The Robbo / JDK factoid race continues!

A Lt Louis Strange actually ended up hanging from the ammo drum of the type of Lewis on the ‘Foster’ mount depicted with his a/c upside down over the lines when he was caught out wrenching at a jammed ammo pan after undoing his straps and standing up in the cockpit. Amazingly, the jam stayed jammed and he was able to climb (literally no doubt) back into the cockpit. Dunno about you but it makes me feel sick thinking about it. The gun slid down on the rail to have the ammo changed, but some aces used it at an angle as a way of shooting into the underside of (mostly) unsuspecting two seaters.

It’s well documented (try google) and he was an amazing charecter all around, serving in W.W.II as well.

Cheers

PS: Don’t dare mention Bader, or Mr Williams anyone, it’s not funny.

B17 is an F model and it looks to be factory fresh and flying over some of the mountains near Seattle

Hi
I can help a bit further. It’s an SE5 / 5a. The SE5 originally ame with a ‘glasshouse’ canopy which was very unpopular with the pilots; and was usually removed – it slid forwards and IIRC was open at the rear. It became the SE5a, and that didn’t have the canopy, which on the SE5 was often removed in service by the pilots. Lots of variant cockpit arrangements existed, and I think the headrest missing setup was one of the factory versions; though, again, lots og headrests were removed in service.

The sight is an ‘Aldis’ sight.

Cheers

Hi,

With or without the headrest, I think the first one is an SE5A. I can’t think of another aircraft of this vintage with a similar configuration.

The second one is a B17F.

Any other thoughts chaps?

L9172

Originally posted by Robbo
Top one, I’m pretty sure, is an SE5a.

The gun, gunsight, rear fuselage, cockpit, top wing cut-out and exhaust all look the same.

Did they make SE5a’s without the headrest then?:confused: It is not in that pic – just in every other pic I can remember…;)

Flood.

thanks guys

Would the SE5 be RF C then? I am not into the ww1 era strictly ww2 and postwar…

1st piccy is an SE5a with lewis gun above upper wing 2nd maybe the E model B-17, i think the g model had the under chin Machine guns.

Old B17 pic

heres the 2nd one