Idea to fly Jaguar privately in the UK would it work

Jaguar was conceived, built and introduced as a supersonic aircraft (the RAF’s original requirement being a 2 seat supersonic advanced trainer and the French opting for a single seat striker)
Whether or not many Jag jockeys have seen Mach 1 on the clock is another matter! After all spey engined Phantoms were supposedly Mach 2+ jets but I dont think that ever happened!!

I suspect that may be true of the more modern Jaguar variants & upgraded airframes, which have moved from the Ardour 104 to the 106 – making it 25% more powerful than the original GR1s introduced in about ’73/’74.

Originally posted by RobAnt
That just about grounds all the private Hunters & Hawks out there.

The Jaguar is only just supersonic, not much faster, if at all, than the Hunter & Hawk, if I recall correctly, which are both supersonic in a dive.

At least that’s the impression I had while serving at Lossie in the mid 70’s.

Don’t tell anyone, but I flew the Jag Sim at night a couple of times (once with the motion on) (Strictly for testing & calibration purposes you understand 😉 😀 ).

Jaguar is a true supersonic aircraft – Mach 1.1 either on the deck or at 30k. Hunter, Hawk, Gnat and Sea Vixen could only puch the barrier in a dive hence them being transonic.

Problem with RAF Phantoms (apart from 2 huge re-heated donkeys) is that they are technically U.S warplanes and the CAA would have to treat them as such.Thats why so many had to be scrapped, rather than preserved.

I presume you were referring to the Gnat?

Ooops, yes, you’re quite correct, I did mean the Gnat.

Originally posted by LN Strike Eagle
There are/were a couple of F-104s also flying in the States, and an F-4 Phantom.

They may be more than 2 104’s airworthy in the USA. There certainley is Starfighters Inc. which is a 2-ship 104 team flying displays along the lines of the old Marineflieger ‘Vikings’…..
They have 2 F-104’s with a 3rd on rebuild. There was also a civilian 104 (owned by Jim Robinson..??) about in the USA in the mid-late 1990’s, not sure on the current status of that one.

Sadly, one of the Starfighters Inc.’s 2 display pilots was ex-Vietnam 104 pilot, Tom Delashaw who was killed a year ago in a Hunter crash in the USA.

Tom was also involved with the Norweigan Starfighter project which is aiming to get a 104 airworthy in Norway sometime soon.

The reason for the fact that some really hot jets are fly ing the USA under civilian ownership is that the FAA takes a more enlightened approach to this than the CAA

LN Strike Eagle

Actually, there are private Hawks about. BAE SYSTEMS own 2 demontrator aircraft (ZJ100 and HNDA) and 5 Mk53 aircraft. However, they are not on the civil register but operated under COMA (company owned military aircaft), under the auspices of D Flying.

The FRADU jets are operated by civil operators, although I think they are still MOD property. (same goes for the flying training Hawks at Valley)

There are/were a couple of F-104s also flying in the States, and an F-4 Phantom.

Robant, there are no private Hawks in the UK. I presume you were referring to the Gnat?

On the subject of supersonic aircraft, I was under the impression that the Sea Vixen was supersonic?

Originally posted by EN830
So how do they get around this in the states, isn’t there a MIG21 flying in civilian hands ????

I was only aware of one, which was the 2 seat trainer, that crashed a few years ago, while being used on a miltary contract programme, killing pilot Doug Schultz of Stallion-51 fame.

So how do they get around this in the states, isn’t there a MIG21 flying in civilian hands ????

Re: possible answer

Originally posted by curlyboy
About 10 years ago the late Mark Hanna (very nice man only met him once) was talking about operating the OFMC’s Phantom XV474 as he was a qualified phantom pilot and had more than enough support but the CAA was the only stumbling block.

As far as I remember, the core of the problem was that by international arms’ standards Phantom was still an operational type. If it was made airworthy officially, it would have to count towards Britain’s total number of operatonal combat aircraft. As the number is precisely laid out in some multi-national agreements, this would be a problem in terms of international disarmament talks etc. That was why Hunters and MiG-15s could fly at airshows, but Fishbeds and Fitters acquired from ex-Warsaw Pact countries could not, for example: they, too, are considered operational combat types. I should think Jaguar falls in the same category even if withdrawn from RAF service.

V.

Originally posted by dees01
All the jets operated by civil companies are regulated by D Flying under AvP67 (eg FRADU). SO no problem there. Maybe thats the way forward – get all these heavy metal jets onto the military register, and then tell the CAA to shove their regulations where the sun don’t shine!
:p

Exactly….:)

Not wishing to be accused of starting another Lightning thread hi-jacking:D

But, this was effectively how the Lightning Association got around the problem of the ferry flight of XR724 from RAF Shawbury to Binbrook back in 199?

It was a long time ago, but from faded memory it went something like this.
Ownership of the then G-BTSY was temporally transferred back to BAe for operation under COMA, so, back as XR724, Peter Gordon-Johnson could then fly her to Binbrook. Barry Pover’s team installed the zero time engines etc., and pre-flight serviced her, with I believe the late Baz Livesey from BAe overseeing and signing off etc.

Definitely a one-off not to be repeated event.

But, getting back on topic, who knows, with a lot of this ‘civvie’ contracting-out malarkey going on, from training to tankering etc., perhaps, in the future a ‘historic’ aircraft friendly civilian military contract operator may wish to add a display aircraft(s) of certain types to it’s inventory……;)

RobAnt,

You are correct, the Hunter is just about supersonic in a dive. The Gnat is as well. I believe the issue is with reheated jets, not supersonic aircraft.

There are no Hawks currently being operated on the Civil register IIRC. All the jets operated by civil companies are regulated by D Flying under AvP67 (eg FRADU). SO no problem there. Maybe thats the way forward – get all these heavy metal jets onto the military register, and then tell the CAA to shove their regulations where the sun don’t shine!
:p

the CAA would never certify a supersonic jet to operate in private hands

That just about grounds all the private Hunters & Hawks out there.

The Jaguar is only just supersonic, not much faster, if at all, than the Hunter & Hawk, if I recall correctly, which are both supersonic in a dive.

At least that’s the impression I had while serving at Lossie in the mid 70’s.

Don’t tell anyone, but I flew the Jag Sim at night a couple of times (once with the motion on) (Strictly for testing & calibration purposes you understand 😉 😀 ).

I heard somewhere (a friend’s brother’s aunt’s sister’s dog’s brother-in law!) that a lot of modern RAF aircraft have engines, ejector seats etc that are not owned by the RAF, but ‘leased’ to them by the manufacturer.

possible answer

In response to the above question and has been answered in previous posts the CAA would never certify a supersonic jet to operate in private hands (which is why there is no lightnings flying in britain).

About 10 years ago the late Mark Hanna (very nice man only met him once) was talking about operating the OFMC’s Phantom XV474 as he was a qualified phantom pilot and had more than enough support but the CAA was the only stumbling block.

Which unfortunately means you will need to see the jaguar in its natural element while it is still in service (but consider going to india as they will probably operate theirs for another 20 years).