V-S Seafire FR Mk 47, VP441.

Originally posted by lauriebe
[B]A contributor to another thread on which VP441 has featured, Richard Taylor, has suggested that I might like to post some photos of the aeroplane during its time with the Reflectaire Collection. Richard’s association with this aircraft started at that time.

Richard, No sooner said than done! Enjoy.

Hi Laurence

Good of you to respond so swiftly. It really is about time I ‘bit the bullet’ and got a decent scanner, but until then I remain at a disadvantage.

Your reproductions of my hard copy prints are brilliant and I’m so glad I can now store these images on a more modern medium.

I really do look forward to the day when you are in a position whereby the full history of this aircraft can be detailed in print; similar to the successful “Story of a Lanc” which continues to prove popular with those who visit East Kirkby and NX611. As you know, many of my original photos and recollections are contained in that publication.

We’ll continue to liaise on and off ‘Forum’. Have a really good Christmas, even if the seasonal snow and ice is only a distant memory in your current location !!

Best Wishes

Richard
(R. J. A.)

The final photo shows VP441 at what was hoped to be its permanent home, Squires Gate Airport, Blackpool. This photo, again taken by Richard on 15 July 1970, shows the aircraft parked where it was to be displayed, minus canopy. This had been damaged en-route from Hullavington. The airframe had also suffered during the unloading process.

One point on the canopy, it had never really fitted that well as can be seen in the first photo of the series. Mark 12 has told me that he believes that it was from a Mk XIV Spitfire. This being the only canopy available to the restorers at Culdrose at the time. Is that right, Mark?

This second photo, shows VP441 in a hangar, Bldg 85, at RAF Hullavington on7 May 1970. The collection was housed here temporarily, whilst a new home was being found.

The aircraft had only been partially re-assmbled at this time.

A contributor to another thread on which VP441 has featured, Richard Taylor, has suggested that I might like to post some photos of the aeroplane during its time with the Reflectaire Collection. Richard’s association with this aircraft started at that time.

Richard, No sooner said than done! Enjoy.

This first photo, taken by Richard, shows VP441 parked in front of the old Watch Office at Lavenham on 5 October, 1969.

Talking of Roy Bonser’s ‘Treasures of Youth’ articles, perhaps the following might be of interest. In his last article which featured VP441, Roy precised the text of my e-mail to Ken Ellis following his appeal for more info after the first series ran. As Roy’s space was limited, below is the full text of my original message:

Sir,

I have only just received my copy of the February issue of ‘Flypast’ (I reside in Penang, Malaysia). I had particularly wanted to read through this issue to see what was said about an old acquaintance of mine, V-S Seafire FR Mk 47, VP 441. I note at the bottom of this article, your plea for more information on the airframes mentioned within it. Perhaps you will allow me to add what I know of this particular aeroplane, whose history I have been trying to research over the past three years. Indeed, one of my photos, which I took on May 23, 2001, when I visited the restorers in Texas, was included in the April 2002 issue of ‘Flypast’.

I joined the ATC in early May, 1960. My Squadron, No.335 (2nd Plymouth), had at that time, VP 441 on its strength as a training airframe. This aircraft had been acquired a little earlier, around mid-1958, when it was offered to the Sqn by the Royal Naval Engineering College (RNEC), HMS Thunderer, in nearby Manadon, Plymouth, after its days as a ground instructional airframe were over. The original intention had, apparently, been to scrap the airframe. However, it was found that the aircraft could be stored between two of 335 Sqn’s wooden training huts at the site it occupied half way down Biggin Hill, in the suburb of Ernesettle, Plymouth. The aircraft was towed into position by road behind a tractor from the RNEC to the Sqn’s HQ, a distance of approximately 3 – 4 miles. With the wings folded, it still occupied the whole of the 2 lane west bound carriageway on the main road which at that time was the main road know as the Crownhill Road . After turning off the main road, there was just enough clearance along the remaining roads to allow the aircraft passage into the Sqn’s HQ. On arrival at the HQ, the aircraft fitted very neatly, with the wings folded, between the two main training huts. There being just 12 inches to spare on either side! The open ends at the front and rear of the aircraft were fenced off with chain link fencing some 8 feet high. There was a further layer of barbed wired approximately 1 foot high above that. This arrangement was sufficient to protect it for the next 5 years.

The aircraft was delivered intact, except that there were no propellors fitted or supplied. Both spinners were however supplied. The cockpit interior had also been pretty well denuded of all but a few instruments. The only ones remaining, if memory serves, were oil pressure and temperature gauges and fuel gauges. Also, all the control cables had been cut so that no control surfaces operated and the top portion of the control column was missing. The Griffon engine fitted at this time was a non-standard example. Unfortunately, my notes on the type and serial number have long since disappeared. It was wearing the later style of camouflage applied to this type, a small strip of Extra Dark Sea Grey along the very top of the fuselage and over the upper surfaces of the wings and tailplane. The rest of the aircraft was Sky. Also visible were standard Type D roundels on the fuselage and upper and lower wing surfaces. There were no other marking readily visible except the underwing serials and another serial, VP 476, stencilled on the bulkhead at the very front of the aeroplane through which the engine drive shafts protruded.

A detailed examination of the airframe during the summer of 1962 showed several points of interest. Firstly, the fuselage serial numbers and the ‘Royal Navy’ title had been overpainted in Sky. These were exposed after lightly rubbing down the top coat of paint. Secondly, after similarly rubbing down the vertical tail surfaces, traces of the letter ‘O’ in black paint were discovered. This, of course, refering to the aircrafts operational usage by No. 804 NAS aboard HMS Ocean in 1948/49. Lastly, on the upper and lower surfaces of the outer wing sections, there was evidence of black and white stripes having been applied at some stage and later overpainted. There would appear to be no record of this aircraft having served with No. 800 NAS during the early stages of the Korean conflict, so could these outer wing sections have been taken from a different airframe? This seems a more likely explanation. Examination of the rear fuselage did not show any evidence of similar stripes having being applied there.

Early in 1963, a disaster in the form of an arson attack on the wooden hut to the right of the aircraft left it exposed to all and sundry. As luck would have it, no damage was caused to the airframe by the fire. However, it seemed as though having been denied access to the airframe up until then, the local vandals now worked overtime at trying to destroy this magnificent aircraft. It truly was very badly damaged and a very sorry sight to behold. I attach a photo showing it in place at this time. Every piece of glass and perspex was broken. Even the thickly armoured bullet-proof screen behind the windshield was shattered. Iron bars had been forced through the fuselage and the elevators were broken from their hinges as were all the access hatches. It was around this time that the Historic Aircraft Preservation Society (HAPS) took an active interest in the aircraft.

In January, 1964, a recovery team from the Royal Navy arrived to dismantle the aircraft and transport it to RNAS Culdrose, where it was to be restored to static condition for HAPS. Prior to visiting Breckenridge in May, 2001, I last saw VP 441 on the day the recovery to Culdrose started. Attached is a photo taken on that occasion. During my four years with the Sqn, I had become very attached to this aeroplane. I had tried, without success, on several occasions to unearth some of its history. It was not until I got Internet access in early 2000 that I discovered that it was still extant. Since that time I have tried to piece together what had happened to it since manufacture at the end of 1947. I now have a fairly complete picture of its history, having been in touch with a good many people around the world (UK, Australia and South Africa) who were either involved in flying, maintaining, restoring or otherwise caring for it all this time. I have also kept in constant contact with the present restorers and would very much like to be there when this wonderful aircraft takes to the air again. That, hopefully, will not be too long in coming. Currently, the airframe is virtually complete, with the exception of some smaller components, and is awaiting the delivery of an engine. This is a former Shackleton unit, to which will be fitted a cutdown propellor, also ex-Shackleton.

As I mentioned earlier, I have been researching this aircraft for some three years now and seem, at the moment, to have extracted from my present contacts, all the information that they have. If any of your readers are able to assist further, any piece of information, particularly photographs (which are like the proverbial rocking horse droppings!), on this aircraft, or the Seafire Mk 47 in general (as my search now has widened) would be gratefully accepted.

The photo that I sent along with the text is shown below

Regards,

Laurie.

Ant,

I think that both Mark 12 and I had mentioned the sad state of affairs regarding paperwork for VP441 and other ex-Navy airframes from this era. I originally tried to trace VP441’s history back in 62/63. Never had any response. One of my ex-FAA (Fleet Air Arm) contacts says that he remembers F’s 700 and other records being heaved over the side at the same time as written-off aircraft!

Richard,

Many thanks for your kind words. However, the real credit for this decision must go to Nelson Ezell. His persuasive powers were crucial. I think we all owe him a big thank you! Well done, Nelson. Let’s hope the interest shown continues into the future. Like you, I really am looking forward to seeing this unique aeroplane back in the element she was designed for……THE AIR!

With regard to the misidentification of this airframe in the ‘Treasures of Youth’ series, I have already been in touch with Ken Ellis and supplied him with the latest updates on ‘441. He will be running a news feature in ‘Flypast’ soon and will correct the typo. Despite the wrong serial being quoted throughout, I very much enjoyed reading Roy’s articles.

Regards,

Laurie.

Its possible. But as I understand it you would need to go through a company with a CAA A8-20 E4 (design approval) as only such a company can apply to the CAA for a Permit to Fly for the finished aircraft. This only applies to ex military a/c over 2,730 Kg all up weight and includes most of the fighter types such as Hurricane Spitfire P-51 etc.

Any company taking on responsibility for work done by another unapproved company or individual, with no way of checking the source of materials etc, would probably insist on re-doing much of it. That would make it rather expensive.

Originally posted by Mark V
Ant, the absence of ‘historical’ paperwork would not prevent this aircraft flying after restoration in the UK but any deviations from the original design amounting to ‘major modifications’ might cause problems. This is why certain aircraft restored overseas and operated over here depart our shores after a relativley short time. Our CAA does require a very detailed ‘paperwork trail’ with regard to the work undertaken in the re-build of a historic aircraft.

Mark – is this situation retrievable? i.e. once an aeroplane has been rebuilt with insufficient paperwork, is there any way to work over the aircraft and sort out the situation? The problem I see with that is that potentially it could be very difficult to pick out original and replacement materials.

Ant, the absence of ‘historical’ paperwork would not prevent this aircraft flying after restoration in the UK but any deviations from the original design amounting to ‘major modifications’ might cause problems. This is why certain aircraft restored overseas and operated over here depart our shores after a relativley short time. Our CAA does require a very detailed ‘paperwork trail’ with regard to the work undertaken in the re-build of a historic aircraft.

Originally posted by lauriebe
I have just heard from Ezells this morning that the owner is going with the second of two schemes that were applied to VP441 during its service. That scheme is as shown in the photo below

Great news Laurence. Knew your personal influence would beare fruit !!! Got your recent e-mail updates (and photos) on the subject and can’t wait to see the finished article (IN THE AIR preferably !).

What an interest this aircraft (and NX611 / Reflectaire Collection etc.) has generated on this ‘Forum’ !!. It’s great that the historic records of these aircraft are beginning to reflect the real behind the scenes events and the experiences of those of us who personally experienced them at the time. Keep up the good work.

PS: Let’s hope that our good friend Ken Ellis can ensure that the records are put straight in ‘Flypast’ in connection with the true identity of the Seafire FR.47 that we are now all talking about. As you know it has twice been incorrectly shown as VP447 in the text of the articles (by Roy Bonser) that have been published on “ex Air Training Corps. airframes” over the past year.

Christmas Greetings 😀 VP447

“And yes, it is a pity it wasn’t kept in the UK, but there was no interest being shown at the time.”

Somebody on another thread was saying that the RN/FAA destroyed an awful lot of records of aircraft they had operated in the late 40’s and 50’s.Presuming that ‘441’s paperwork from this peariod has been lost this way,would the CAA have allowed her to fly even if interest had been shown,and indeed perhaps that’s why interest wasn’t shown at the time?

I have just heard from Ezells this morning that the owner is going with the second of two schemes that were applied to VP441 during its service. That scheme is as shown in the photo below. A good choice, I think. The earlier scheme was a little drab. We are now putting together the finer details for the markings that will be applied. These will show the aeroplane as it was when with 804 NAS. The aircraft in the photo is not VP441, it is VP465, shown in a dispersal at RNAS Hal Far, Malta around early 1949. The colour scheme and markings to be applied to ‘441 are the same pattern as these. It is likely to be around March/April before the aircraft is completed.

Flood, as I mentioned in a previous thread, the scheme that the owner had been considering was similar to that applied to Spitfires, grey/green topsurfaces and sky underneath. And yes, it is a pity it wasn’t kept in the UK, but there was no interest being shown at the time.

When an authentic scheme is mentioned are we talking that the other option was a scheme for another FR47 – or a generic Spitfire paint-job?
Well done anyway – shame it wasn’t kept in Britain, though.

Flood.

Thanks for all that info Laurie,interesting stuff.Great news about the paintjob too,I’d like to join with those above in thanking the owner for his decision to stick with an authentic colour scheme.

I’ll second that!

Thanks for all that info Laurie,interesting stuff.Great news about the paintjob too,I’d like to join with those above in thanking the owner for his decision to stick with an authentic colour scheme. 🙂

For those who are not aware of the history of this aeroplane, perhaps a potted bio would be in order.

VP441 was manufactured at South Marston and first flew on 30 November, 1947. It entered service with No. 804 Naval Air Squadron at RNAS Ford, Sussex, early in February, 1948. The Sqn moved to RNAS Eglinton, Northern Ireland on 25 May 1948, losing one aircraft en route due to rear prop failure. The Sqn continued working up at Eglinton and embarked on HMS Ocean for a cruise in the Med on 24 August. Ocean arrived in the Med on 3 September.

Sometime around late October/early November, VP441 suffered damage in a deck landing accident. So far, I have not been able to pin down the exact details of this incident. The aircraft was transferred to the Aircraft Repair Yard at Kalafrana, Malta for repairs.

It seems that, although it was repaired and made ready to return to 804 Sqn, that did not happen. It appears to have been held in storage until being transferred back to the UK around early May, 1949, where it was again placed in store.

In January, 1951, it was returned to the makers for upgrading. After this exercise, it again returned to store.

Around July, 1953, it was transferred to RNAS St Merryn for a period as a ground intructional airframe.

On 20 January, 1954, it was struck off charge and moved to the Royal Naval Engineering College at Manadon, Plymouth, for use by trainee engineering officers. At that time, it was given an A number in the 2300 series although,this seems not to have been applied to the airframe. The A number series is the Naval equivilant of the RAF’s M numbers.

Around mid-1958, the RN were looking to dispose of the aircraft and, rather than scrap it, it was offered to 335 (2nd Plymouth) Sqn of the ATC. The aircraft fitted in nicely between two of the Sqn’s wooden training huts. Unfortunately, during mid-1963, access to the aircraft was gained by some of the more mindless local youths who set about trying to inflict as much damage to it as possible. Happily, the Historic Aircraft Preservation Society, one of the earliest such groups in the UK, had taken an interest in it and arranged for it to be recovered by an RN team and taken to Culdrose for restoration to static condition in January, 1964.

On 20 July, 1969, the aircraft was taken from Culdrose and moved to its new home with the Reflectaire Museum at Lavenham, Suffolk. It stayed at this location until the Museum was forced to move in January, 1970. A temporary home was found for the collection at RAF Hullavington. Because access to the site was limited, this was not an ideal solution. on 25 June, 1970, the collection moved again to what was hoped would be a more permanent home at Squires Gate Airport, Blackpool.

Unfortunately, the Museum encountered many problems. This forced the winding up of the collection and the disposal of all its assets. VP441 found its way to Booker for a short period, before being bought by a member of the CAF and moved to the USA in April 1975. Shortly after arrival in the US, it acquired the civil registration N47SF. These marks it still carries.

Restoration continued from then on with the hope of returning the aircraft to the air. It was acquired by Ezells in October, 1995, and purchased by its present owner in September, 1997.

Regards,

Laurie.

Great news!

Hooray…blooming marvellous:D 😀

Thats great news!