About twenty years back I visited the small churchyard near Claude Monet’s garden at Giverney in Northern France.
In there is a single, communal grave containing seven RAF casualties. I took a picture of the headstone and came back to the UK.
This was in the days before the internet, little came of my search, the picture is long-since lost.
This year I visited Giverny again, and completely forgot to visit the church. But the CWGC register has turned up the names for me, I wonder if, between us, we can’t fill in a few details.
It was obviously a crew.
They died together on the 8th June 44, two days into the invasion.
The driver was a P/O Ronald Peter Maude, age 21, service number 174531.
Take it away,
Moggy
By: kev35 - 1st October 2003 at 19:49
JDK.
Only too happy to oblige. I found the site by accident but it is a fantastic resource.
Hope all goes well with your research.
Regards,
kev35
By: JDK - 1st October 2003 at 19:28
Many thanks Kev 35.
I’m researching a loss for a family (so I’m not at liberty to discuss, sorry) and it looks like this will fill a gap!
Cheers
By: kev35 - 1st October 2003 at 17:34
JDK.
It is the Oberkommando der Luftwaffe claims lists which have been transcribed by Tony Wood and the address is
www.luftboard.ndo.co.uk/tonywoodb.htm
Hope this helps.
kev35
By: JDK - 1st October 2003 at 16:26
‘Tony Wood’s excellent O.K.L. claims site’
Er – This sounds very useful. What is the site and where?
Cheers
By: kev35 - 30th September 2003 at 21:21
Mike J’s and Transalls comments about the losses encouraged me to have a bit of a deeper look at those operations carried out by Bomber Command on that night. This is what I came up with. Sobering indeed.
The Losses.
408 Sqdn. 1 Lancaster. Op to Acheres. Crew killed.
420 Sqdn. 1 Halifax. ——-“——— Crew killed.
427 Sqdn. 1 Halifax. ——-“——— 5 evaded, 2 POW.
429 Sqdn. 1 Halifax. ——-“——— 1 killed, 1 evaded, 2 POW.
422 Sqdn. 1 Halifax. ——-“——— 1 killed, 4 evaded, 2 POW.
115 Sqdn. 6 Lancasters. Op to Chevreusse. 36 killed,5 evaded, 1 POW.
101 Sqdn. 1 Lancaster. Op to Foret de Cherisy. Crew killed.
76 Sqdn. 1 Halifax. Op to Juvisy. 2 evaded, 5 POW.
78 Sqdn. 4 Halifaxes. ——-“—— 20 killed, 2 POW.
466 Sqdn. 1 Halifax. ——“—— Crew killed.
15 Sqdn. 4 Lancasters. Op to Massy Palaiseau. 17 killed, 3 evaded, 2 POW.
514 Sqdn. 2 Lancasters. ——“—— 4 killed, 6 evaded, 5 POW.
622 Sqdn. 2 Lancasters. ——“—— Both crews killed.
156 Sqdn. 1 Lancaster. Op to Versailles. Crew killed.
158 Sqdn. 2 Lancasters. ——“—— 7 evaded.
166 Sqdn. 2 Lancasters. ——“—— Both crews killed.
431 Sqdn. 1 Halifax. ——“—— Crew killed.
640 Sqdn. 1 Halifax. ——“—— 2 killed, 1 evaded, 4 POW.
138 Sqdn. 4 Halifaxes. SOE Operations. 20 killed, 1 evaded.
Some 459 aircraft were despatched to bomb targets described as communications, rail targets and a road junction at the Foret de Cherisy which was thought to be providing cover for Panzer units and fuel dumps. A further 127 aircraft were despatched on ‘minor’ operations including 24 in support of the Resistance.
Of the 263 crew in the aircraft lost that night, some 174 were killed or died of injuries received. 25 were taken prisoner and 35 manged to avoid capture. The remaining 29 made it back to England with their aircraft. At least four of those aircraft lost were carrying an eighth crewman, possibly pilots on ‘2nd ****ie’ trips.
So, 37 lost out of 586 despatched, somewhere around seven per cent. Doesn’t sound a lot till you look at the figures behind it does it? My admiration for the crews of Bomber Command has just gone up another notch.
Regards,
kev35
By: gbwez1 - 30th September 2003 at 00:27
I was at Witchford 5 or 6 years ago and there was a nice little Museum in one of the industrial estate buildings – with relics from a dig/recovery of one of the Lancasters that had been shot down by an intruder. It was a Lancaster II – I recall they had a recovered Bristol Hercules on display.
Don’t know if it’s still there.
By: Arabella-Cox - 29th September 2003 at 23:40
Witchford’s quite close to me too. The memorial Moggy mentioned is predominantly placed in memory of two crews who perished within minutes of each other in particularly cruel circumstances.
Both Lancasters had returned from Ops, and were either in the circuit or on their final approach when they were shot down by a lurking German night fighter. I believe the memorial says there were no survivors. 🙁
By: Transall - 29th September 2003 at 22:12
Thanks for posting it, Moggy.
I wouldn’t have had any answers for you, but (as I suppose many on the forum) I find it quite interesting.
And as Mike J said, quite a sobering thought.
37 heavies in one night!:eek:
Best regards, Transall.
By: nitramMkII - 29th September 2003 at 20:43
SW Objekt 50-100km from Paris. 1700m 0237
For Objekt read target and the distance is estimated between 50 and 100km from Paris at a height of 1700m at 02:37 a.m.
You probably got the last bit
Nitram
By: Moggy C - 29th September 2003 at 18:02
295-300 degrees is about NW so Reuter seems to be out of the running.
“SW Objekt 50” ? Does that mean they had a fixed navigation point called Object 50 and Altner was SW of it? We’d need to find Objekt 50 to be sure. But descending from about 5,000 feet a Lanc could easily cover 35km assuming some power, however their natural reaction would probably have been to turn North and head for the beaches. If they were able.
Moggy
By: kev35 - 29th September 2003 at 17:53
Moggy.
How about these for possibles?
Fhj Ofw Herbert Altner 8/NJG5 4-mot flgz. SW Objekt 50-100km from Paris. 1700m 0237
Ltn Heinz Reuter 7/NJG2 4-mot flgz. 60-80 kms SW Paris. 1,500m, 0240.
Also LL864 was taken on charge by 115 Squadron in March 1944. At the time of her loss she had flown 107 hours.
Information from Tony Wood’s excellent O.K.L. calims site and Avro Lancaster, the definitive record by Holmes.
Regards,
kev35
By: Moggy C - 29th September 2003 at 17:51
Final offer, with some better reference
66Km on a track of 295 Magnetic
(Don’t forget though that magnetic variation changes over time)
Moggy
By: Moggy C - 29th September 2003 at 17:40
Ooops! Not the question you asked.
80 – 90 Km
Moggy
By: Moggy C - 29th September 2003 at 17:37
Kev,
My aviation charts in the office don’t show Giverny and I don’t have any other solid reference, but my best estimate would be about 45 – 50 nautical miles from the centre of Paris on a track of 300 degrees magnetic.
Moggy
PS: We’ve both been a bit sloppy. Let’s standardise the spelling as ‘Giverny’ 😉
By: kev35 - 29th September 2003 at 17:27
Moggy.
Can you give me an indication as to approx how far the aircraft crashed, in kms, from Paris? And the direction please? I’m following something up.
Regards,
kev35
By: Moggy C - 29th September 2003 at 17:05
Thanks Kev.
I toyed with the idea of just sending the query to you as a private message, but hoped others on the forum might be interested.
Witchford is just down the road from me now. The Lancaster Way Business Park still shows some evidence of original buildings, and has a fine memorial.
The churchyard at Giverny is particularly beautiful, and whilst they do not rest in amongst large numbers of other casualties as in a CWG cemetery it all looks very peaceful.
Must have missed Monet’s house by just a couple of hundred yards.
Odd that reference to Clichy New Cemetery. Neither I nor the the CWGC believe that.
Moggy
By: kev35 - 29th September 2003 at 16:55
Hi, Moggy.
115 Squadron Lancaster I LL864 A4-H 7/8 June 1944.
P/O R P Maude
Sgt A H Anderson
F/O R W Tovey
F/S H A Foster
Sgt J L Fyfe
Sgt R D Sutherland
Sgt K Penton
T/o 0027 Witchford tasked for an operation to Chevreusse to bomb communications. Shot down by a night fighter and crashed between 150 and 200 metres off the Giverny (Eure) to Vernon road, at Giverney. All are buried in Clichy New Cemetery.
All taken from Bomber Command Losses, 1944.
115 lost six aircraft on that operation, 6 crewmwn evaded capture, one other was captured and the rest were killed. Bomber Command lost thirty-seven lancasters and Halifaxes that night.
Regards,
kev35
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September 29, 2003 at 3:59 pm