Who,What, Where and When?

A bit more info on the dumping.

Mark

http://home.st.net.au/~dunn/ozatwar/dumped@sea.htm

See also three further pix on this topic in the WIX site gallery.

http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/WIX/images/jb-dumping-1.jpg

Mark

Australian dock

By the way, Kev35’s “alongside” shot shows an Australian port, almost certainly: see the mature Eucalypt in the centre background.

It’s interesting that there is little official or commercial signage in view.

Mark 12.

Thanks for that, and for the photo. Our Chris thinks it’s almost ghostly to see these photos that are being unearthed and to realise that her Dad may be among those pushing aircraft overboard.

Regards,

kev35

kev35,

About 10 years ago the rumour mill started to circulate stories of finds and potential recoveries of Naval aircraft off the the East coast of Australia. Playing their cards close to their chest, at least two groups hinted that they were just on the point of breakthrough indicating that complete aircraft had ‘glided’ down to the ocean bed and were sitting on their undercarriage.

My recall is that it was very deep water, some material had been recovered by fishing nets or grapple, it was going to be excruciatingly expensive and venture capital was required in abundance.

Research, aside from the recoverers, soon elicited that HMS Pioneer, a maintenance carrier, had been tasked post war to dump huge amounts of material in deep water ‘x’ miles out of Brisbane and this was confirmed by a light trawl at the PRO. I may be wrong but something like 50 trips were made but whatever the number it was not just one or two. The Fleet Air Arm material is believed to have come from Archerfield.

In 1998 I was in Australia recovering an aircraft back to the UK and on completion tagged on 10 days to see old friends. I took the oppotunity to visit with one of the potential recovery parties at Noosa and was shown some of the material. A piece of Firefly and a piece of Corsair. It was hard to see that material in this condition would yield potentially airworthy aircraft from the deep.

It all seemed to die a death and fade away and it is worth remembering that this situation in Australia was coincident with the best of times for Russian recovery and this was a magnet for available money and offering potentially a better return.

What it really needed or still does is something like ‘Discovery’ channel to sponser a survey.

The pic is thought to HMS Pioneer showing Seafires, Fireflies and an Expeditor, all in pretty ‘rum’ state, prior to dumping.

Mark

Credit photo:- via G. Camm.

Mark 12.

I suspect you know a bit about the dumping of aircraft off the coast of Australia. Is there any chance you can tell us a bit more of what you know please.

Regards,

kev35

The ship is definitely HMS Pioneer.

Had a good look with a magnifying glass and these are the aircraft I think I have identified.

1. Possibly an Avenger?
2. Aircraft head on with three bladed prop?
3. Possibly a Corsair.
4. Avenger almost head on.
5. Avenger with ‘N’ on tail.
6. First a/c aft of the superstructure is an Avenger, tail on.
7. Avenger, tail on
8. Corsair, ‘P’ on tail and ’24’ on fuselage.
9. Avenger.
10. Corsair facing forward.
11. Avenger.
12. Corsair, ‘3’ on fuselage, ‘P’ on tail.
13. Corsair, coded ’12V4′.
14. Another tail, possibly Avenger.

Regards,

kev35

A mk I Firefly looking like a mk V

Eritreain Fireflys

Looks like HMS Pioneer it is
HMS PIONEER history
In one of the pics on that page, she is seen dumping Avengers & Barracudas & the history says that she dumped aircraft off of the Australian coast.
Of course as noted by Steve Young, the Firefly V had a 4 bladed prop, so maybe a mk 1 with the lower cowling & rad missing ? after all the aircraft were probably on their way to be dumped.:(

Ant,

Start at the front, and work backwards. You’ll come to a mast with two lines coming down from the top. Just forward of the front line you’ll see an inline-engined aircraft, as if you’re looking at it head on. You’ll see a spinner and a three bladed prop, one blade pointing straight upwards (that’s a point – Firefly V’s had four blades didn’t they?) facing towards you.

Easy to see when you’ve got it, not so easy until you’ve located it.

Steve

Erm…perhaps I need my eyes checked,but where is this ‘Firefly’ looking thing everyone is talking about?I can see Avengers and Corsairs,but nothing else.:confused: It would be strange as there weren’t usually more than two types operating from one BPF carrier,usually a strike squadron with Avengers/Barracudas and a fighter squadron with either Firefly,Corsair,Seafire or Hellcat.
Relying on my grey matter (which is all too often a bad idea!) I think the ship may be HMS Illustrious.As far as I can remember she was the only BPF carrier with a combination of Corsair and Avenger,others being Avenger/Firefly,Corsair/Barracuda etc.

Just had another look. Looks like the undercarriage is wide track, hinging upwards and inwards. Rules out Seafire then. Also looks like lumps on the leading edge. Cannon? Points to Firefly. But then we’re into what mark and where are the radiators, because try as I might, I can’t make out any sign of either chin (Mk I) or leading edge (mk V) radiators. Sea Hurricane as AJ says? Surely not that late, I’d have thought…? But as far as my recognition skills go, it’s a possibility. Inline, wide track, no visible radiator. Take your pick.

Potentially changing my mind on that Firefly. If this was taken in 1945, were the Firefly V’s in service by then? If not, the Firefly I’s had big chin radiators. There’s no evidence of one on the inline-engined aircraft in photo one. Or of leading edge radiators for that matter. I started thinking Fulmar, but the Fulmar also had a chin radiator, which although further back would probably still be visible. Probably a bit late for a Fulmar too, so perhaps it’s not one of those. So Seafire seems to be the most likely.

What a cracking response, thanks to everyone for your help, it’s very much appreciated. If anyone can come up with anything more please post on this thread.

Thanks again,

kev35

Can’t shed any light on the second one Kev, although I’d agree with Southampton. Only ‘cos I watched ‘Titanic’, mind. 😉

As for the first shot, my initial reaction was Hellcats and Corsairs. But then when I looked again the tail’s weren’t right for Hellcats, and the size of the Grummans (compared to the Corsairs) was too big for Wildcats. So I’m going with Avengers.

As for the inline-engined aircraft forward of the mast, I concur with Flat12x2 and Digby, I reckon it’s a Firefly (fits date wise with the Corsairs and Avengers), although I can only make out one.

Boat identity? Gawd knows….

Left to Right
Corsair,
Firefly ?
Unkn ?
Avenger
Avenger

Aft
Avenger, Tail end on
Avenger, Tail end on
Corsair
Avenger
Corsair
Avenger
Corsair
Corsair & behind poss Avenger & Corsair

Had another look at the fwd deck could that be possibly be a couple of Fireflys?

The aircraft on the ship are almost certainly Corsairs and Avangers.

On the aft deck are mostly Corsairs but there is at least one Avanger there as well. On the forward deck are two Avangers visible.

Hope this helps, rather than confuse!

Galdri

I think there was a ‘lend lease’ implication here. Use or dump. Somewhere in the back of my mind I think the carrier made 50 odd trips to dump aircraft and ordnance in deep water.

I have seen some of the recovered material, pieces of Firefly and Corsair. Some is in amazingly good condition, some with horrendous sacrificial corrosion.

Still waiting for the first evidence of Seafires 🙂

Mark

DIGBY.

I thought Wildcats too. Did the FAA use Hellcats though? And if we’re talking about late 1945 wouldn’t all the Wildcats already have been either lost or withdrawn from service?

Regards,

kev35