An aircraft's true identity (2003 Zombie)

Hi Peter

The National’s unit is not currently on display, or so their ED advised me.

I am sure that will change with time (I sure hope so).

Tom

TOM H posted:
But as the only Mossie currently on public display in Canada it has brought many a tear to former Mossie crews,

Really Tom? Are you forgetting the Canadian Mossie at Ottawa?

Truth be told (as he drains another Tasman Bitter) I brought this subject up when I first joined the forum: that on painting aircraft “to represent the one flown by…etc etc”

The consensus of opinion was it was the owner’s perogative.

I hated seeing the most recently restored F4U Corsair emerge in Ira Kepford’s colour scheme…and how many Memphis Belles do we need?

However!!!! Not too long ago, the thought of having so many Corsairs, Forts, Hurris et al airworthy and / or on public display was an absolute pipe dream. Believe me, if that Corsair flew over my house I would not be standing in the backyard shaking my head with pursed lips saying ” yes, very nice I’m sure, but it’s not the right colour, is it?!”

I think it maybe boils down to groundpounders like myself merely expressing a wistful dream; that of “if I had the money, I’d buy this aircraft, restore it this way, paint it this colour…..” I really can’t believe folks would turn their noses up at any historic aircraft because it wasn’t done to their liking.

(Another Tasman)…as for Friday 13th: I live in Australia. We don’t have a Halibag here, composite or otherwise. I followed the construction of it via the excellent UK magazines, and I have to say real or not it’s bloody fantastic!!!!

Back to the beer fridge…..

An aircrafts true identity

I personally dont have a problem with an aircraft wearing a different paint
scheme to the original although keeping the original serial number is a valid
point.
Lets take the Hawker Tempest at Hendon for instance it is now in target tug
colours, which I know is accurate for this aircraft [ but still has no winch!]
But any lay person seeing this aircraft even though it is hidden in the roof,
would not probably realise the types credentials and the valuable part it played in the invasion of europe and to my mind there are so many more exciting schemes it could of been displayed in, Its almost as though the curators had no interest in the types illustrious history and dont appreciate that bar one exception it is the only one left of its type.
I would love to put Masons book on the Typhoon and Tempest under their nose!
Particularly as this aircraft is a bit of a ‘bitsa’.
The Typhoon is similarly treated and this had no service history so would be ripe for a good scheme, on the other hand the blenheim for instance was converted from a bolingbroke so the policy is a bit of a mystery.
Thats my thought for the day anyway!

Regards

Graham

Something here that I haven’t seen addressed is cold, hard cash. I’d personally like to see at least an accurate serial number either on the aircraft, or prominently displayed along with a history of the actual aircraft on a plaque nearby, but frankly, if some group is willing to pony up the money for the restoration to or preservation to have it painted in “their” markings, or in honor of some particular event or crew, then so be it. There’s no real lasting harm done. At least the airframe is preserved for the next generation.

Ryan

I guess it all depends on the aircrafts mission and what you are able to start with…

If its privately owned then its up to the owner and his/her desires.

If it is publicly held it gets more complicated.

The Mossie in the Alberta Aviation Museum is a good example.

It is the mate to the one noted above, but it arrived derilict, badly damaged and (at the time before new airframes) not restorable to airworthy in the remotest chance, barely salvagable to static.

It also came with baggage and a complicated deal that it had to represent a 418 Sqn FB aircraft.

Currently the colours are not correct, the engines are wrong for the Mark it represents. But as the only Mossie currently on public display in Canada it has brought many a tear to former Mossie crews, inspired a new generation to the heroics and traditions of 418Sqn and helped tell a story of a generation that could not have otherwise be told.

In time (and as funds come availabile) the errors will be corrected, it will be re-restored (not to airworthy as the Spar and back cannot be made airworthy) and steps taken to insure it will continue to paint the picture of history to new generations.

So answers are not always so cut and dried, if we had not been able to make the deal that allowed the aircraft to be restored it would have remained damaged and unprotected outside…would that have been a better fate?

I think all would agree it would not.

In a perfect world I would see each restored to tell its own story, but in the world of funding and acqusitions that is not always going to be possible and a type being able to be on public display, inspiring, teaching and presenting import parts of our past is far more valuable than a perfect example in private hands that will never been seen.

My 2 bits anyway

BlueMax Dr 1

I know both your aircraft you mentioned…thanks for saving them

Tom H

Quite often I see museum aircraft painted in markings or colours schemes that do not match the actual history of the particular airframe. Sometimes I guess it’s done because all original examples are long gone and it gives visitors a chance to see one today in that livery.
For example the Constellation G-GONI displayed at Science Museum store Wroughton is displayed in TWA colours. I wonder why when it could have been displayed as Dutch Airlines KLM PH-TET/PH-LDT (it’s true identity).

How do most preservations group feel? I guess a lot has to do with how historically significant the plane is..Many a civil DC-3 is transformed into Army DC-3 in order to create the warbird look or a postwar Lancaster returned back to a WWII configuration that it might never have served.

Just thinking aloud.

I bought a Mosquito from Spartan Air Services in 1963. It had never seen operational service with the RCAF and was produced after the war.. I would have painted it in a wartime camo paint scheme. Now they want to paint it in its survey colors. Not too exciting.

I bought Lancaster FM-136 to build a memorial to the BCATP. When it came time to paint it I just took a wartime photo of VN-N and sprayed my aircraft in those colors. FM-136 didn’t have much of a record. As VN-N it looked great on the pedestal.
I don’t think the public worries about what the purist’s think.

I prefer to see the aircraft original serial # still on the airframe. It’s identity is linked to that number. But I guess at times a pretty plain Hunter can be dressed up abit with a Blue Diamonds paint job!!

For my two cents..I think the YAM Halifax is an excellent recreation. I know it was the one of the reasons I visited the museum two years ago!! and I would return again!!:)

Sorry to drag this thread up again but I couldn’t resist.

Many years ago, when the IWM Sunderland was getting towards the point of looking like an aeroplane again, there was a rumour that it was going to be repainted into it’s French Navy colour scheme as that would be the only appropriate scheme for the aircraft in it’s current configuration. You can imagine the response from the DAS volunteers to this suggestion for yourselves as it’s still before 2100, but I think it makes the point rather well.

Generally, I like to see aircraft in there own markings, but one has to be realistic. I think that the BBMF have got it right. The codes and colour scheme change (as they did during the war if the aircraft lasted long enough) but the serial remains the same.

To carry on the James Bond theme, Roger Moore didn’t change his name to Sean Connery just because he was cast as James Bond.

To continue the sub-topic, I am a great supporter of the Elvington Halifax. If the kids want to see what Grandad flew in during the war, and he was a Nav. on Halifaxes (Halifaxs?) where else are they going to go where he can proudly say ‘in that’.

Willow

P.S. My fiancee summed this all up rather well when I was complaining about the Sea Vixen colour scheme.
She said ‘Oh, so YOU’RE airworthy Sea Vixen is in a better scheme is it?’

Nuf said!!

Originally posted by Moggy C
In a frantic attempt to drag it back on course, hands-up all those who want Sally B to display as a French Geo-physical survey aircraft from the 1960s?

[timid voice] I would. [/timid voice]

I fully understand that Sally B’s paintjob makes it far more attractive and emotionally significant for a vast majority of the people watching and admiring it. But i respect it firstly as an aircraft with a history independent of it’s 17.000-something brethren. Just like a Skyraider with Chad Police markings will do much more to me than one with some kind of USNavy paintjob.

I know i am a bit weird about this, but in my case i have to say i am more interested in an insignificant aircraft type in it’s original colours. A long time ago, at Bretigny-sur-Orges airshow, Sally B in it’s then-guise (it was 1991 i think) was put on the flightline next to a Hurel-Dubois HD34. Neither is particularly interesting for me in the number-crunching context, but i do remember being far more interested in seeing that HD34 fly than that B-17 (although the latter sounded far better).

Don’t worry Moggy, i’m sure i am a minuscule minority in this respect.

I feel a bit responsible for the direction this thread has taken since I brought up the Halifax in the first place.

In a frantic attempt to drag it back on course, hands-up all those who want Sally B to display as a French Geo-physical survey aircraft from the 1960s?

Moggy

what exactly is ‘wrong’ with Friday 13th? which bits?

I know she has Hastings wings and undercarriage (?) but she has an authentic fuselage section and arnt the new build rear and nose sections pretty accurate?

as for my view on her,

Ive stood in the nose section of the Halifax at Lambeth. Its real and i stood inside it and didnt feel a thing. Ive sat in the pilots seat of the YAM Halifax and that is a real halifax! It feels like a halifax and it looks (minor quibbles aside) like a Halifax, therefore to me it IS a Halifax. Also the cockpit is more than a few feet from the ground, something Hendon never got there head around 😉 It’s as much a Halifax as the replica Vimy is a Vimy, Hurricane LF363 is LF363, etc etc.

‘…a fairly good facsimilie of a Halifax.’

‘…none of them make the displayed aircraft a Halifax.’

‘Nuff said, really.

Depends whether we want to take this to the nth degree. Strictly speaking, HFL’s Spitfires (for example) aren’t proper Spitfires, because they’re not entirely original. And even if a warbird IS comprised entirely of original parts, it’s not going to still be 100% it’s original identity, because parts will have come from other aircraft. The vast majority of vintage aircraft we see flying today are bitsas, that’s the only way they can be maintained.

Like Tony and Kev are saying, it’s not whether an aircraft / reproduction / replica is original that really matters, it’s what it means to those who look at it.

Originally posted by tonydyer
(on that Halifax-lookalike)
It is more than just a representation…it is something tangible that shows respect for the often forgotten sacrifice made by Halifax aircrew. It is something for veterans to look at and remember days gone by. It is something that their grandchildren can be proud of.

All of those statements are perfectly true. But none of them make the displayed aircraft a Halifax.

Interesting how a thread can wind its way off the beaten track to such an extent to decry the efforts of the Elvington Halifax!

You may like, or not like the YAM Halifax, you may think it deserves to be binned….on the latter you are WRONG. The YAM Halifax has had 1000s of hours (many by ex Halifax personnel) expended to make a fairly good facsimilie of a Halifax. It is more than just a representation…it is something tangible that shows respect for the often forgotten sacrifice made by Halifax aircrew. It is something for veterans to look at and remember days gone by. It is something that their grandchildren can be proud of.

The YAM guys are aviation preservationists, don’t decry their efforts until you have equalled them.

TonyDyer….powered by Spitfire Ale!

I’ve only had a Stella and I’ve forgotten the question. When is Friday 13th? And whats happening in Halifax on that day?

Put like that my friend, I’ll happily agree with you.

Mike

😉

Originally posted by Lancman
…those dear old Halifax boys get emotional over the ersatz Hallybag because unfortunately, there’s nothing else for them to look at; if that changes one day, we’ll see just how important the kit of mismatched parts is then!

Good point. But by the time the situation you describe arises, I fear there will be no veterans left to visit any of their former mounts. Therefore the Elvington Halifax is of the utmost importance to them. And to me, it’s the veterans that matter.

Regards,

kev35

Well, it would be interesting to have a complete, original Halifax on it wheels in pristine condition to compare to the Airfix job at Elvington, and to see which one got the most visitors over a year…those dear old Halifax boys get emotional over the ersatz Hallybag because unfortunately, there’s nothing else for them to look at; if that changes one day, we’ll see just how important the kit of mismatched parts is then!

Hee hee, this one just runs and runs, doesn’t it?! 😉