Westland Whirlwind Fighter- Help!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mike.
I know very little about the Whirlwind but surely even the Air Ministry wouldn’t have been stupid enough to suggest developing an, effectively, new engine in case of a Merlin shortage? I’ve always understood the Peregrine and the Whirlwind where specifically designed for each other.
Substantial difference in power output, too.

It was Air ministry withholding authorization for the use of Merlins that forced Rolls Royce to develope the Peregrine

Think you’ll find that was braille…;)

Flood.™

In the words of the immortal prophet “up yours Padre”

Thanks for that Ian. I think I know where in my brain a link to the Peregrine was found! Am I right in thinking that the ill fated Vulture engine was essentially 2 Peregrines together in an X arrangement?

Dave

Yes. It was the failure of the Vulture which helped to finish off the Peregrine.

An alternative engine for the Whirlwind could have been the Bristol Taurus radial. It weighed pretty much the same but was around 20% more powerful, and of course being air-cooled was more resistant to battle damage so would have suited the ground attack role more. Add some more armour and you could have had the equivalent of the Hs 129 only with the performance of a fighter…see: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/tankbusters.htm

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and Discussion forum

Mike.
I know very little about the Whirlwind but surely even the Air Ministry wouldn’t have been stupid enough to suggest developing an, effectively, new engine in case of a Merlin shortage? I’ve always understood the Peregrine and the Whirlwind where specifically designed for each other.
Substantial difference in power output, too.

The wings were single pieces of plastic and the rivet heads were so bold that to run your thumb over an unpainted surface was to risk taking the skin off

Think you’ll find that was braille…;)

Flood.™

I have to agree with Moggy re the problems faced by the Whirlwind. I have often wondered how it might have fared if it had been designed with Merlins instead of Peregrines (I think that’s what they were!) It’s worth remembering though that the Whirlwind preceded the Mossie by about two years and could well have found fame and fortune had they persisted with it (and changed the engines).

I remember Airfix made a very crude 1/72 scale Whirlwind back in the 60’s – has anybody done a better model since?

I too support the project as any WWII aircraft which is currently extinct should be re-built in any way possible. Good luck with the project – unfortunately, it’s a bit far here in Aus to provide much support otherwise.

It could have turned out differently as the Whirlwind was intended to be powered by Merlins but the Air ministry stopped that idea as they were worried that it would cause a shortage of badly needed engines for the other types powered by them. In the end the shortage never happened but the Air Ministry in the normal short sighted way of Government departments never lifted the restriction. The main reason the expected shortage of Merlins never occurred is that the production from Packard became availsble
in time to prevent it.
Wombat, if you think the Airfix model of the Whirlwind was crude you should have seen their Mk II Spit. The wings were single pieces of plastic and the rivet heads were so bold that to run your thumb over an unpainted surface was to risk taking the skin off

I posted something about the Peregrine a while ago. The new forum’s very good but the search is hopeless, I can’t find it.
IIRC, the Peregrine was developed, from the Kestrel, to give minimum frontal area. They were also handed, i.e. one ran backwards. This turned out to be a bad idea and RR didn’t do it again, they used an idler gear for the Hornet.
I think Mark12 found something that said they made a very few Merlins with opposite rotation for some reason. No idea why.

Whirlwind Kits – reply to Wombat

Classic Airframes do quite a nice 1/48 scale which is still available from Hannants. It’s a ‘limited run’ kit so not as straightforward a build as say Tamiya.

If interested, see the illustrated build article at –
http://modelingmadness.com/reviews/allies/gb/cleaverwhirl.htm

Regards

Chris

Thanks for that Ian. I think I know where in my brain a link to the Peregrine was found! Am I right in thinking that the ill fated Vulture engine was essentially 2 Peregrines together in an X arrangement?

Dave

The Peregrine was only used in the Westland P9 Whirlwind. The P9 was designed to the same Aircraft Specification as the Spitfire namely F.37/35, looking at the other aircraft proposed under the same specification none of them were to be or were fitted with the Peregrine.

Ironically the Peregrine though a modernised version of the Kestrel actually incorporated many features from the Merlin, including downdraft carburettors.

Pardon my ignorance but what other a/c was the Perigrine destined for? I recall this engine being in the history of something else somewhere. Maybe – possibly – or then again maybe not!

>Too many systems problems, the engines didn’t really hack it, it never quite found a role.Moggy

Tend to disagree with you there Moggy, it never made it in it’s intended role but was pretty effective as a fighter/bomber, the role that it adopted from mid 1942 until replace by the Typhoon in late 43.

It was basically doomed from conception, Rolls Royce were at full capacity producing the Merlin and couldn’t release the resources to develop the Peregrine further. Westland also saw fit not to fit any form or transfer system to enable fule to be moved from tank to the other, which severely hampered it’s rang.

I’ve liaised with several Whirlwind pilots over the past few years, and they all had mixed emotions about the aircraft, the majority I must say liked it despite it’s foibles.

Below 15,000 it could out perform many of the single engined fighters of the day in certain areas, it was also know to have mixed it with the FW190 with some success.

One of our local property owners and pub landlord was a mechanic on Whirlwinds, he reckoned that it was no more complicated to work on than the Halifax’s that he transferred to after the Whirlwind was disposed of. It’s also worth noting that on many occasions 263 Sqn were the only Sqn able to put a Sqn up from the south coast when the weather prevented single seat types from flying.

I spoke to Steve V sometime ago and he confirmed that he had the remains of a Whirlwind stashed away, I also know that another well known restoration expert has parts of this airframe as well as parts from an engine. However I’m pretty sure there are no know complete Peregrines in existence.

I thought back in 2002 when this project was announced that it was a long time coming, however I think 3 years may be a bit ambitious.

I remember Airfix made a very crude 1/72 scale Whirlwind back in the 60’s – has anybody done a better model since?

Airfix did two – the very crude one and a much better version in the 70s/80s. You could tell them apart because the early one had 263Sqn markings (HE-) and green/brown camo, whilst the later, better version was, initially, in 137Sqn markings (SF-) in green/grey camo, thus covering both squadrons that used the type.
A nice looking aircraft.

Flood.™

Regarding the Whirlwind project, I’m sorry to say that the project to build a static airframe, as initiated by the WIX-forum during 2002 or so, has died a silent death unfortunately. Reason for this was that the key figures had pulled out for one reason or another. Not that there was a lack of enthusiasm, far from it. There was even a seperate Whirlwind forum on the Warbirds Resource Group which was very active and a lot of information regarding drawings, AP’s, wreckage was located.

There is a cockpit project underway, only a few weeks ago the person working on this mentioned this on WIX. Also Steve Vizard who owns a large amount of recovered Whirlwind wreckage is reported to have said that it is his dream to one day reconstruct such a beautiful machine. Being in charge of airframe assemblies, let’s see if he starts work on one someday.

Here’s to hoping.

Cheers

Cees

RE: Westland Whirlwind Fighter- Help!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have to agree with Moggy re the problems faced by the Whirlwind. I have often wondered how it might have fared if it had been designed with Merlins instead of Peregrines (I think that’s what they were!) It’s worth remembering though that the Whirlwind preceded the Mossie by about two years and could well have found fame and fortune had they persisted with it (and changed the engines).

I remember Airfix made a very crude 1/72 scale Whirlwind back in the 60’s – has anybody done a better model since?

I too support the project as any WWII aircraft which is currently extinct should be re-built in any way possible. Good luck with the project – unfortunately, it’s a bit far here in Aus to provide much support otherwise.

RE: Westland Whirlwind Fighter- Help!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>What’s the history with Whirlwind, why did it not go into
>large scale production & serve with more RAF Squadrons?

Too many systems problems, the engines didn’t really hack it, it never quite found a role.

To some extent too, the Air Ministry were preoccupied and couldn’t be bothered to nurse another type through to full operational capability when there was a crying need for more Spitfires and the guys to fly them.

Might have been different if it had Merlins, but the Mosquito was a far more adaptable aircraft and there was very little the Whirlwind could do that the Mosquito couldn’t achieve just as well, if not better.

I knew a Whirlwind pilot once and he much preferred the Spit that he went on to.

Pity, pretty aircraft.

Wish the guys luck with their project, but I’m not holding my breath for a roll-out in 2005.

Moggy

RE: Westland Whirlwind Fighter- Help!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hi Tony,
Interesting project, good luck with it. I don’t know if it’s much help but I see, in this issue of Flypast there’s a Midland Counties Books advert showing a 4+ Publication book on the Whirlwind.
What’s the history with Whirlwind, why did it not go into large scale production & serve with more RAF Squadrons?

TTFN,
Neilly