Bf-110

RE: Bf-110

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 20-04-02 AT 08:38 PM (GMT)]A copule of comments:
May I recommend “Schnaufer, Ace of Diamonds” by Peter Hinchcliffe (Tempus, £19.99), the biography of Germany’s top-scoring Night fighter ofWWII? a superb read from start to finish, he was a 110 man – gives a great account of what it was like.

Secondly, for any online gamers out there, I recommend ‘Aces high’, and awesome WWII aircraft simulator downloadable from WWW.download.com. You can fly most types from WWII, including on the latest patch, 2 verions of the 110. It’s had a great reception from gamers, especially because of the lethality of the nose mounted cannon and the fact that the model allows you to jump into the back and surprise attackers with your rear mounted machine gun (the computer, by the way, puts the aircraft in a gentle orbit while you leave the cockpit). i cannot commend this simulation highly enough. One word of caution: READ THE ONLINE HELP TO LEARN THE ROPES. It will save you tons of frustration. My favourite? The JU88.

RE: Bf-110

Kev, I’m not ignorant, I know how veterans are and what war can do to a person. I didn’t really need the lecture.

All I meant was stories such as a particular mission or air-to-air engagement. Views on the aircraft and its performance in various theaters.

RE: Bf-110

“I hope I can find some stories somewhere. I wanna know what it was like to fly the Bf-110 in combat.”

I’m sorry PII, but this statement is so crass. You, or I, are NEVER going to find out what it was like to fly the Bf-110 in combat.
From the people I have spoken to combat is the thing they are most reticent to talk about. They will happily spend hours telling you about their training, their social lives, the girls they loved, the games they played, the beauty of crossing the English coast at dawn after a night over Germany, knowing that safety and a warm bed were just minutes away, hopefully. They talk about the friends they have lost and their faces change, friendships which were brief but had the intensity of a passionate love affair, friendships the like of which you nor I are ever likely to forge.

…And then comes combat, the fear, the pain, the excitement, the exhilaration, sometimes guilt and even shame, pride, honour, duty. We read the words but will we ever truly understand them. Can we ever understand what it was like for the pilot new to combat? The simple word “BREAK!!” echoing in your headphones as your bowels turn to water, the thud of exploding cannon shells turning your future to oblivion.

I read, I listen, I learn, I appreciate and I try to understand, but I will never know those feelings. In many cases they are a secret which the holder takes to their grave. Combat is an intensely personal and private experience, with different meanings and consequences for each combatant. For those of us lucky enough and priveleged enough to have heard their stories have learned that the secret often lies in not only listening to what is said but being able to hear what isn’t said.

Sorry for rambling again.

Regards

kev35

PS PII, try going to a veterans meeting or parade, stay on the fringes and listen, if you get the opportunity tell them how much their service and sacrifice means to you. You might just come away a whole lot wiser.

RE: Bf-110

Sorry Scooter, I hope I didn’t sound rude. I didn’t mean to. I left the AFM forum several weeks ago (probably over a month by now) because I got sick of many of the people there (you were not one of them). I got sick of it because I wasn’t learning anything anymore, mostly due to the amount of non-aviation related trash that was being put up (best beer, etc.). I also would never get worthwhile replies to lesser discussed subjects. I can learn a lot more on the ACIG forum than I can at AFM.

Regarding, Indo/Pak stuff, I don’t like to get into it because it always results in people arguing and it is an arguement that never seems to end. It is bad yes, but I don’t have much respect for Pakistanis and I don’t like to discuss the PAF or any of that.

I hope I haven’t offended you in any way by any of this or my earlier post. I checked the thread and there was the mention of the good old F-4 so I guess I see why you called my attention to it. Thank you.

Back to the Bf-110…..does anyone else have some good stories. I checked out all those great sites. I hope I can find some stories somewhere. I wanna know what it was like to fly the Bf-110 in combat.

RE: Bf-110

PhantomII- I didn’t know that you didn’t like to discuss Indo / Pak or that you left AFM forum! Sorry, I’ve been out of town for a while. I’ll send you a private E-mail in a minute…..

RE: Bf-110

Scooter why do I need to look at that thread about the PAF? You know I don’t like to talk about Pakistan and don’t like to get involved in those Indo/Pak discussions. Besides, I’ve left the AFM board. Remember?

RE: Bf-110

Sounds familiar thought why would they later reinstall the same turret on the B?

RE: Bf-110

That Four 50-cal turret was removed because it caused buffeting problems. It was deleted from the P-61B, but was put back on later models… not sure of the designation. Did they ever cure the buffeting problem?

RE: Bf-110

Yes, most of the early models were of the P-61B. I guess they had problems with the upper turret? It had 4 50-cal machine guns. Wonder if it is the same forward turret on a B-29?

Scooter

P.S. PhantomII when you get a chance take a look a Air Force Monthly posting on F-7PG’s for Pakistan!

RE: Bf-110

Well the Black Widow has always been one of the unknown fighters of WWII in my opinion. Sadly, it gets overshadowed (as do many other great fighters) by the P-51, P-47 and various other WWII fighters. I think it is an interesting place. It certainly looks cleaner with its radar being all internal as opposed to German nightfighters such as the Bf-110 and He-219. Very good armament of four 20-mm and four 12.7-mm guns as well as a credible stores carrying capacity. Performance I’d say was good and I’ve heard it climbed really well. The later P-61C was really a great performer, but I believe (correct me if I’m wrong) that the B model was more prominent.

RE: Bf-110

PhantomII- What are your thoughts on the American P-61 Black Widow?

RE: Bf-110

No, there aren’t any Me110 flyers unfortunately, although there was talk of one of the ex-Jim Pearce machines being a potential airworthy restoration a couple of years back. I’m not sure whether that’s still on though…

A far as I’m aware, there are only two complete examples on display in museums; one each at the RAF Museum Hendon and the Deutsches Technisches museum in Germany (Friedrichshafen?)

Online info..

Have you tried the German Night fighters resource page PII?

http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/7404/main.html

Regards, Glenn.

RE: Bf-110

Wandering just a little off topic, but not too much, a couple of years back I was visiting the German War Graves on Cannock Chase when I came across the grave of Walter Rubensdorffer and his observer.

A Epr210 raid on Kenley had gone (unusually) horribly wrong and he popped up over the AA defences at Croydon I believe. On the other hand it might have been a raid on Croydon that emerged at Kenley….

Moggy

RE: Bf-110

Some sites :

http://www.luftwaffe-experten.com

http://www.luftwaffepics.com/

http://www.afrika-korps.de/ (in German)

RE: Bf-110

Interesting info you guys have presented. So, the Bf-110 could have done much better than it did against the RAF? Sounds like a believable possibility to me. One tactic they used I know of was called something like the Lufbery Circle. The 110’s would fly in a larger circle with the guns of on fighter covering the rear of the next. It worked for a while and then the RAF developed proper tactics to counter it. You know, the more I read about WWII, the more I realize that while Goering and Hitler was fairly smart, they weren’t really the geniuses that they were thought (and made out by history) to be. The Battle of Britain is a prime example of Goering’s failure as a commander and Operation Barbarosa is a prime example of Hitler’s stupidity.

Anyway, on to the 110. Does anyone have any good info or know any good sites on 110 operations in North Africa, Russia, and over Germany in the bomber-destroyer role? I’d love to learn more.

RE: Bf-110

Just to correct myself,Epro210’s leader was Walter Rubensdorffer,as opposed to Hans.Grey matter does certainly play some funny tricks on you!
As an addition to my previous post,I should also mention the unit’s attacks on Manston in late July and early August,both of which were highly succesful.One raid in conjunction with Do17’s of KG2 put Manston out of action for more than 24hrs.

RE: Bf-110

When considering the Bf110 in the context of the Battle of Britain,it could also be argued that the escort tactics employed by the Luftwaffe did not suit the type.The 110 could have been devastating if it had been allowed to fly at 25,000ft+,swooping down on the intercepting Hurris and Spits and then zooming back up to altitude with impunity.Unfortunately (or fortunately,depending which way you look at it!) Goering himself insisted that his fighters should stay close to the bombers,so that the 110s didn’t have much of a height advantage to play with.You could say that the Zestorergeshwader were operating with one hand tied behind thier backs.
A more successful side of the 110’s involvement in the Battle is often overlooked.This is the role played by Eprobungsgruppe210 (Epr210).
Thier leader Hans Rubensdorffer was said to be one of the finest leaders in the Luftwaffe.It was this unit under his leadership that almost completely destroyed Ventnor radar station on the Isle of Wight on Eagle Day,August 13th.The bombing was deadly accurate and all the Gruppe’s 110’s returned safely.Less successful was an attack a few days later on Hawkinge aerodrome-they bombed the disused Croydon Airport by mistake!Thier second attempt on Hawkinge was even worse,a number of the gruppe’s aircraft being damaged or shot down. Rubensdorffer himself was killed on this raid,and his loss was devastating to thier previously unshakable morale.The gruppe’s performance deteriorated somewhat after his loss,but I reckon that it could be argued on the basis of the Gruppe’s overall record that the Bf110 made a significant contribution to the Luftwaffe’s overall effort in the Battle of Britain.I would certainly agree that the Bf110 has had something of an unfairly bad press,and it would be good to see one flying again so that perhaps we can get some idea of it’s capabilities for ourselves 🙂

RE: Bf-110

Thanks for the tips on the books. Your comments on night-fighting are always have I’ve viewed it as well. I think the Bf-110 was pretty effective in that role. It is just amazing how heavy the armament was on the 110.

RE: Bf-110

Hi,

Aircraft of the aces series do a title – “German Night-Fighter Aces of World War II.” This I can thoroughly reccomend, it’s an excellent read with the usual stunning artwork.

Another title worth reading is the “Other Battle”, by Hinchcliffe? I’m not sure of the author but again another good read.

To me, night-fighting was a dirty, deadly type of warfare where the sole intention was to creep up on your enemy without being seen and to destroy him as efficiently as possible. If things went well for the interception there was no fight at all, just a couple of well placed bursts of cannon fire and off after your next target. German night-fighter pilots used to follow the bomber stream and often made a number of interceptions in a single sortie. The best point to aim for on a bomber was the wing between the engines and the fuselage. If the fuel tanks there erupted it was extremely unlikely that the victim would manage to return home.

Regards

kev35