RAF Lossiemouth in WW2

RE: RAF Lossiemouth in WW2

Jefford himself tells us in RAF Squadrons (Intro pp15-22) that his dates for Squadron formation, movement, disbandment or equipment are a good “working set”. That is, they are not iron-clad gospel. As an RAF man to his bootstraps, he has gone to considerable lengths to tell us the what and whyfore of all the possible weaknesses.

Ross is quite right to consider the Operations Record Books as well. All things being equal, they should say what actually happened on the ground in any unit, as they were by and large compiled in the unit at the time. But even the ORBs are not always error-free or complete.

So when Jefford records a 211 Sqdn det at Paramythia as early as their 17 Nov arrival in Greece, but the participants, the ORB and Logbooks are all silent on the point, I’m inclined to think of it as possibly a move proposed but abandoned (rather than proclaiming to be an error in either).

Three other documentable examples:
Reporting of events elsewhere sometimes creates or repeats errors.
Compilation long after the event may lead to omissions and date errors.
Destruction of records in urgent circumstances, leading to large unrecorded gaps.

Nothing’s perfect, least of all in war – comparing as much original material as can be found helps, but often its really not possible to be precise.

RE: RAF Lossiemouth in WW2

Thanks for the good info everyone. Yes, my Grandfather is still alive, he’s 94 and lives in a nursing home. The only aircraft type he really mentioned to me was the Avro Anson, but his memory is not good these days and I doubt he would recall the details. He was a mechanic who had been having flying lessons before the war but he never finished so he did not get his pilot licence. My Grandmother was a good source of info about the war, but she’s dead now.

RE: RAF Lossiemouth in WW2

10 Ferry Pilot Pool (ATA) was based at Lossiemouth but the ORB for 4SFPP (Service Ferry Pilot Pool) does not mention being at Lossie. 4FPP (ATA) was at Prestwick and it is quite logical to suggest that they had a detachment at Lossie.

RE: RAF Lossiemouth in WW2

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 01-04-02 AT 09:12 AM (GMT)]Hi Ross,
The books I mentioned in my last post made no mention of Groups/Wing etc. So I’m having to do some reading up. However, I will state again that 540 Sqd. wasn’t formed until 19th Oct. 1942. It was formed out of H & L Flight PRU at Leuchars. As far as I can tell they were never based at Lossiemouth, but DID have detachments there(& many other places, too). Having just started to have a read up on 540 Sqd. their Command Assignments were as follows: No.1 PRU 19/10/42; No.106 (PR) Wing 26/06/43-15/05/44; No.106 (PR) Group 15/05/44-07/05/45.

C U soon,
Neilly

ps It might take sometime, I’m going through Roy Conyers Nesbits’ Eyes of the RAF, a good book, but ‘heavy’ reading!

RE: RAF Lossiemouth in WW2

Hi Neilly,

My source is the Unit ORBs.

You will find that the PRU units were transferred to Coastal Command No.16 Group 16/11/40.

All became No.106 Wing 14/04/44 again under Coastal Command.

Regards
Ross

RE: RAF Lossiemouth in WW2

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 31-03-02 AT 06:43 PM (GMT)]540 Sqd. was not formed until 15th Oct. 1942. There is no reference to Lossiemouth, what so ever. (The 3 books I’ve looked at are Squadrons of the RAF by James Halley, RAF Squadrons by CG Jefford & Mosquito Sqd. of the RAF by Chaz Bowyer). There is no reference to who’s control they were under, at any time. However, you’re correct about the areas that they were photographing- primarily German, Italian & Vichy shipping, before photographing mainland Europe in preparation for D-Day.
21 & 82 Sqds. you’re quite correct (should have looked further back!!!) apologies!x( Doh!

Cheers,
Neilly

RE: RAF Lossiemouth in WW2

Hi Neilly

***I don’t think 540 Sqd operated under Coastal Command because it was a Photo Recon. Squadron flying Mosquitoes. Their main bases were Leuchars (Oct 1942)& Benson (Feb 1944 to March 1945)***

I think you will find that 540 sqn did actually work under costal command and that Leuchars was thee main costal command base up in Scotland.

Regards Merlin

RE: RAF Lossiemouth in WW2

Hi,

All the PRU with the exception of No.140 Sqn were put under the control of Coastal Command. This was due to the bulk of early recce work being done on the German Capital ships in French and later Norwegian ports. No.540 operated a detachment at Lossiemouth in 1944 to 1945 to report on shipping movements for the strike wings further north.

No.21 Sqn was Fighter Command but was attached to Coastal Command to cover the areas of Norway that the Anson units could not reach. This was needed until more Hudsons reached the Northern units. 24/06/40 to 29/10/40. Later detachments were 27/05/41 to 14/06/41. 07/09/41 to 21/09/41.

No.82 Sqn was a similar unit and was used to replace the Coastal Units suffering from heavy losses during shipping strikes. 18/04/41 to 03/05/41.

If you check the dates in 1941 you will find that they are all associated with the movement of the Capital Ships.

Regards
Ross

RE: RAF Lossiemouth in WW2

Thanks Neilly,

really appreciate the info and I’ll definitely keep an eye open for those books. Hope you have a good afternoon’s flying.

Regards,

kev

RE: RAF Lossiemouth in WW2

Hi Kev
140 Wing were known as the Gestapo Hunters. It comprised of 21, 464 (RAAF) & 487 (RNZAF) Sqds. The Wing came under 2 Group & then 2nd TAF.
You’re correct about the school being hit by accident. This came about because W/C. Kleboes’ Mosquito hit a chimney (or high object, can’t quite remember. Old age!!!) & crashed onto the school. There was alot of smoke coming from the crash site & several Mosquitoes that followed bombed the school, thinking it was the Shelhaus. I can look up all the details, if you like.
2 good books to read: Gestapo Hunters, about 464 Sqd, but includes the other 2 Sqds. & Mission Completed by Sir Basil Embry, who in my view was one of the all time greats, of aviation in WW2. If you liked Johnnie Johnsons’ book, you’ll love this one! You’ll have to track it down from somewhere like ABEbooks.com as it’s an old book. I have an original 1957 1st edition copy.

Cheers for now, off to play model aeroplanes.

Neilly

RE: RAF Lossiemouth in WW2

Neilly,

can you tell us more about the Gestapo hunters wing please? Presumably these were the units that raided the Gestapo headquarters in Denmark? Johnnie Johnson in Wing Leader mentions how a school was hit during the attack and shortly after war’s end a flying display was held to raise money for the victims. I think those details are correct but I’ve lent the book out so can’t check.

Regards,

kev35

RE: RAF Lossiemouth in WW2

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 30-03-02 AT 10:31 AM (GMT)]Hi Ross,
I don’t think 540 Sqd operated under Coastal Command because it was a Photo Recon. Squadron flying Mosquitoes. Their main bases were Leuchars (Oct 1942)& Benson (Feb 1944 to March 1945). Then they went to Coulommiers, returning to the UK in Nov ’45. In fact No1 PRU was the first flight to use the Mosquito on 17th September 1941. This flight went on to be 540 Sqd in Oct. 1942.
No.2 query; 82 Sqd. which I thought operated in the Far East. Again another Sqd. which eventually operated my favoureite- The Mosquito.
No.3 query; 21 Sqd. was a Fighter Command Sqd. doing mainly intruder work They were part of the Gestapo Hunters Wing.
Interested in any comments.

Cheers,
Neilly

RE: RAF Lossiemouth in WW2

“Also, do you know how I can find out why 83 Squadron were there for a short time without resorting to the ORB?”

My books give them as being seconded to Costal Command for just Feb and March 1940.

I’d guess this relates to the British government trying to keep Roosevelt sweet by not bombing Germany other than with useful supplies of toilet paper and the paucity of Coastal Command’s equipment. (Would you want to go to war in an Anson?)

Why so briefly, I have no idea.

Moggy

RE: RAF Lossiemouth in WW2

Hi,

The following units operating under Coastal Command were resident 1940 to 1945.

No.21 Sqn
No.22 Sqn
No.57 Sqn
No.82 Sqn
No.254 Sqn
No.540 Sqn

Regards
Ross

RE: RAF Lossiemouth in WW2

Moggy,

I realised other units operated from there but didn’t know which so thanks for that, another one of the million gaps in my knowledge has been filled. Do you know whether any Coastal Command units operated from there?

Also, do you know how I can find out why 83 Squadron were there for a short time without resorting to the ORB?

Regards,

kev35

RE: RAF Lossiemouth in WW2

Kev,

Spot-on as far as you’ve gone.

But let’s not forget that as well as the Bomber Command squadrons you have listed Lossiemouth had a host of other units based there.

15 SFTS operated Harvards and Oxfords in 1939 – April 1940

20 OTU undertook night bomber training on Ansons and Wellingtons from mid 1940

46MU (Maintenance Unit) worked on Hinds, Harts, Tiger Moths and Wellingtons in 1940. By 1942 it had moved on to Hurricanes, Masters, Beaufighters and Lancasters. Yorks and Lincolns from 1945 onwards.

Also based was a detachment of No 4 Ferry Pilots Pool. This usually involved Oxfords as communications aircraft.

Moggy

RE: RAF Lossiemouth in WW2

Hi,

Hope this is helpful.

21 Squadron 24-6-40 to 29-10-40
27-5-41 to 4-6-41
7-9-41 to 20-9-41
Aircraft were Bristol Blenheim IV.

57 Squadron 24-6-40 to 13-8-40
Aircraft were Bristol Blenheim IV.

63 Squadron 6-12-42 to 31-12-42
Aircraft were Mustang 1, 1A.

82 Squadron 18-4-41 to 2-5-41
Aircraft were Bristol Blenheim IV.

83 Squadron 21-2-40 to 19-3-40
Aircraft were H.P. Hampden 1.

110 Squadron 19-4-40 to 2-5-40
23-12-41 to 28-12-41
Aircraft were Bristol Blenheim IV.

82, 83 and 110 Squadrons were detached flights operating from Lossiemouth for a short period. I think all the Blenheim Squadrons were night fighter units and I think 83 Squadron with its Hampdens was probably operating from Lossiemouth for an operation in Norway or was engaged in mine-laying.

Is your Grandfather still alive? If so, he may be able to fill in the gaps. If not, you may be able to trace his service record through the PRO at Kew. I think the RAFA has a website for ‘old comrades’ where you may be able to find someone who served with your Grandfather.

Regards,

kev35