Korean Aviation Industry Thread

Just like Eagle says..the gradual development from Block 1 to 3 is already planned from beginning of the project. However what is not in detail now is how big the difference between Block 1 to following Blocks.

Independent commission has been put in Indonesia to assess the project with one of the topics that information on the difference between Block 1 and following Blocks will be quite substantial, that Block 1 can’t be upgraded later on to following Blocks.
For that, the commission give recommendation that participation to the initial batch (I presumed Block 1) will be limited on 1 SQ (16 fighters) only.

Again, I only read comment from Indonesian media, thus not have detail on how KAI plan on doing development stages. One thing so far, Indonesian participation as Junior Partner still on, but they are in negotiation on stages on development participation..which from what I heard related on development progression between various Blocks.

Initial agreement is for DI involved with KAI on Block 1 development..seems now Indonesian wants to negotiate also on how to progress on following Blocks.

The thing is that even between the Korean government, ROKAF, and KAI, the current KF-X/IF-X development program only covers Block 1 development. Nobody has officially sanctioned or paid for Block 2 or 3. So PTDI can collaborate for Block 2 and Block 3, but that has to be a sperate agreement.

Just like Eagle says..the gradual development from Block 1 to 3 is already planned from beginning of the project. However what is not in detail now is how big the difference between Block 1 to following Blocks.

Independent commission has been put in Indonesia to assess the project with one of the topics that information on the difference between Block 1 and following Blocks will be quite substantial, that Block 1 can’t be upgraded later on to following Blocks.
For that, the commission give recommendation that participation to the initial batch (I presumed Block 1) will be limited on 1 SQ (16 fighters) only.

Again, I only read comment from Indonesian media, thus not have detail on how KAI plan on doing development stages. One thing so far, Indonesian participation as Junior Partner still on, but they are in negotiation on stages on development participation..which from what I heard related on development progression between various Blocks.

Initial agreement is for DI involved with KAI on Block 1 development..seems now Indonesian wants to negotiate also on how to progress on following Blocks.

Well, if they are going for a short development schedule for the first block then Al based alloys for the structure can help. It eliminates a lot of long term degradation issues such as moisture intrusion and galvanic corrosion that has to be mitigated with composites. Their only risk is whether their weight budget allows for it in the end. And, since they are going to have some design tolerance built in and Al alloys are already pretty light, that is likely a very low risk. With regards to VLO, the internal structure has little effect. The F-35 uses Al and does just fine. It’s the skin layers that mostly matter for stealth.

I read from some source in DI, that stated KAI lead design team already plan that the Block 1 and Block 2 difference will be quite significant. Not only IWB but also the amount of composite materials in air frame..This related on level of LO difference from Block 1 to Block 2. In such Block 1 still consider gen 4.5+ and Block 2 will be genuine gen 5.

​​​​can you confirm this from Korean sources ?

I only consider something true when there is official documentation or an actual person related to the company that is quoted. So in terms of the details, nothing is confirmed. We know the plan is to steadily improve from Block 1 to 2 to 3, but the timeline and exactly what is included in each block is not confirmed. That KAI is planning to upgrade the fighter with IWB is obvious, but in terms of other technical details we have no reliable information. People have guessed that composites/radar-absorbing-structure is part of the upgrades, along with conformal antennas, uprated F414 engines, internal EOTS and so on.

Possibly. A lot of the KF-X will be made of good old aluminium alloy, however. It reduces technical risk and also manufacturing costs. (The trade-off being the KF-X having a higher empty weight than contemporary standards may dictate)

I read from some source in DI, that stated KAI lead design team already plan that the Block 1 and Block 2 difference will be quite significant. Not only IWB but also the amount of composite materials in air frame..This related on level of LO difference from Block 1 to Block 2. In such Block 1 still consider gen 4.5+ and Block 2 will be genuine gen 5.

​​​​can you confirm this from Korean sources ?

Does it carry AIM-120 internal or with semi recessed station? Or both at the same time?

Semi-recessed first. Possible development and addition of IWB later. (Most definitely not at the same time)

https://youtu.be/p9RhzQK1JyI

From ROK TV. The first fuselage component, which indicates KFX already entering prototype production stage.
The video shown KFX with internal bays of 4 of AIM 120 class. Don’t understand Korean, this not sure if the internal bays now still on batch 2 as previously planned.

Does it carry AIM-120 internal or with semi recessed station? Or both at the same time?

The inlet duct section profile looks so much like the ones on the Rafale. I wonder if they had some shared work with Dassault there. Also, the depth of the WB cutout is remarkable. That would call for a lot of bracing in traditional manufacturing tech. I guess that the traversing wing carry through box will take all the load with a composite structure.

I think the similarity of the duct is more coincidence than anything, the way a rectangular inlet is twisted into a circular shape right before the engine has to be primarily driven by CFD and tests.

Possibly. A lot of the KF-X will be made of good old aluminium alloy, however. It reduces technical risk and also manufacturing costs. (The trade-off being the KF-X having a higher empty weight than contemporary standards may dictate)

The inlet duct section profile looks so much like the ones on the Rafale. I wonder if they had some shared work with Dassault there. Also, the depth of the WB cutout is remarkable. That would call for a lot of bracing in traditional manufacturing tech. I guess that the traversing wing carry through box will take all the load with a composite structure.

I myself have doubt on whether 2026 “deadline” can be achieved. It’s just natural for rather protracted development of this kind of aircraft. Especially with its technological content and snags in acquiring key technologies (Indonesian news mentioned 4 key technologies like RF-jammers, AESA, IRST’s and Targeting Pod). We may have seen demonstrators being made. but still a bit long way until we can see it onboard.

I would expect several first prototypes would fly without radars or full suite of avionics.

The only real enemy here is whether the aircraft can still be made up-to date. according to current threat while being affordable. Once the specifications are frozen, there would almost be no way back.

It would still be a good boost tho. and valuable lesson for Block II.

There are no snags and even if there were they wouldn’t affect the deadline. Only maybe the AESA might, and then if it is seen to be a complete failure one can always be bought from the US/Europe/Israel.

https://youtu.be/p9RhzQK1JyI

From ROK TV. The first fuselage component, which indicates KFX already entering prototype production stage.
The video shown KFX with internal bays of 4 of AIM 120 class. Don’t understand Korean, this not sure if the internal bays now still on batch 2 as previously planned.

The plan was always to have the space for the IWBs but not to build/integrate them until later, this has not changed.

https://youtu.be/p9RhzQK1JyI

From ROK TV. The first fuselage component, which indicates KFX already entering prototype production stage.
The video shown KFX with internal bays of 4 of AIM 120 class. Don’t understand Korean, this not sure if the internal bays now still on batch 2 as previously planned.

I myself have doubt on whether 2026 “deadline” can be achieved. It’s just natural for rather protracted development of this kind of aircraft. Especially with its technological content and snags in acquiring key technologies (Indonesian news mentioned 4 key technologies like RF-jammers, AESA, IRST’s and Targeting Pod). We may have seen demonstrators being made. but still a bit long way until we can see it onboard.

I would expect several first prototypes would fly without radars or full suite of avionics.

The only real enemy here is whether the aircraft can still be made up-to date. according to current threat while being affordable. Once the specifications are frozen, there would almost be no way back.

It would still be a good boost tho. and valuable lesson for Block II.

1. The funding hasn’t impacted the program’s progress in any way. The Korean government and KAI have continued funding and the work hasn’t stopped, it’s just that Indonesia has racked up a ‘debt’.
2. The Indonesian engineers aren’t responsible for anything crucial, they are there to receive tech transfer and to design Indonesian localization.
3. ‘Trouble acquiring needed technology’ is exceedingly vague, what is this technology, what is the nature of the trouble, and what will the impact be.

You can’t say there are issues without answering these questions.

Um…intermittent funding, the drawdown in engineers (which might bounce back), trouble acquiring needed technology…

Granted, not every article paints an accurate picture. But if this one does, and it doesn’t straighten out quick, then it’s going to be a long road.

What part of the article points towards the program being a mess? What is the current state of the program in your view?

Sounds like the program is a complete mess. No way is 2026 realistic if that is the state of the program. Not even for a prototype flight.

From AW&ST

KUALA LUMPUR, SEOUL— After a two-year delay, Indonesia has resumed paying for development of the KF-X, according to the fighter’s manufacturer, Korean Aerospace Industries (KAI).

Indonesia’s defense ministry paid 132 billion won ($118 million) on Jan. 2, the company said. The payment is part of Indonesia’s 20% share of the estimated development cost: 1.7 trillion won ($1.5 billion) out of a total of 8.7 trillion won.

It is likely the payment was made after South Korean defense ministry officials visited Jakarta late last year. No announcements on the KF-X project were made following the visit, however.

Indonesia had not paid since early 2017, triggering concerns that it could withdraw from the project, which is known in the Southeast Asian country as the IF-X.

“Through the latest payment, we can dispel worries about Indonesia’s potential exit from the project, and we expect the country to actively participate,” KAI said in a press release. Following the payment, Indonesia is to send more engineers to South Korea to work in the development process of the KF-X, KAI said.

The number will increase to 150 by end of 2019; 72 have been stationed in South Korea since December 2013. Indonesian Aerospace has said up to 200 of its personnel had been sent to South Korea on a rotational basis to work on the project since 2013, though by September 2018 only 28 remained there. It said it needed further government funding to send more personnel to South Korea.

KAI did not say whether the payment brought Indonesia’s contributions up to date.
Jakarta has considered opting out of KF-X development, because of funding cost and U.S. export controls that prevent assembly of the fighter in Indonesia; local assembly was a reason for signing up for the program.

The U.S. can impose that restriction because it is the source of KF-X components. It is unlikely that South Korea and Indonesia have solved the issue though they could be renegotiating assembly plans.

In October 2018 Indonesia said it was renegotiating the financial terms of the project after its local currency depreciated sharply against the U.S dollar. It is not known whether the latest payment was the result of the renegotiations.

Indonesia reportedly has planned to buy 50 KF-Xs. South Korea’s requirement is for 120. Development of the initial version is supposed to be complete in 2026. With an empty weight above 11 metric tons (24,000 lb.), the fighter is being designed for the eventual incorporation of stealth features.

The Defense Acquisition Program Administration (DAPA) has partnered with Korea Aerospace Industries Co. (KAI), a local defense firm, and Indonesia for the project worth 8.8 trillion won (US$7.8 billion).
http://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/news/2018/06/29/0200000000AEN20180629004000315.html

KF-X program budget: US $7.8 billion

South Korea will receive some technical support from an Israeli firm for the development of the AESA, a more advanced and sophisticated system which can radiate multiple beams of radio waves at multiple frequencies simultaneously.
http://www.ajudaily.com/view/20180629152315731

Israeli ToT for AESA Radar

The timetable is based on some progress in the KF-X program aimed at manufacturing around 120 advanced fighter jets to replace the Air Force’s aging F-4 and F-5 combat planes. The so-called 4.5-generation fighters will be upgraded to have stealth functions, if needed.
http://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/news/2018/06/29/0200000000AEN20180629004000315.html

4.5 Generation Aircraft. Stealth Functions to be added in future. Total Aircraft Planned: 120

When compared with European/NATO programs such as the Airbus/Dassault or the BAE/TAI 5th Generation programs they have significantly larger budgets with new engines. The aircraft is also designed from ground up for Low Observability.

IMO, South Korea should just procure F-35’s or F-15S

You begin again bayar..One of your thread is already closed due to your delutional fantasy thinking. Now again you degenerate KFX to your fantasy TFX.

Turkey is broke..KFX supported by much healthier economics nation..with much more advance RND than Turkey. You now saying not much RnD ?
You know nothing about KFX..stop showing your ignorance with fantasy.
KAI doing it on batches..they already prepared more internal bay in next batches..becaused they doing it on realistic approaches not fantasy approach like uou describe on TFX.

TFX is the one that should be put to lid..and just stay with buying F-35..as long as US still allowed it..

The topic here is not the TFX but rather the KFX.

The KFX cannot be a 5th Gen aircraft with a 4th Gen Engine and Fuselage Full Stop

P.S come back to me when Turkey reneges on its contracts. I am yet to hear Turkey not being able to pay for its contracts with BAE Systems and Rolls Royce. You still don’t understand how Turkey pays for its large ticket items. Perhaps you should google Qatars foreign reserve amounts! https://sputniknews.com/military/201803141062519866-turkey-qatar-increa…

You begin again bayar..One of your thread is already closed due to your delutional fantasy thinking. Now again you degenerate KFX to your fantasy TFX.

Turkey is broke..KFX supported by much healthier economics nation..with much more advance RND than Turkey. You now saying not much RnD ?
You know nothing about KFX..stop showing your ignorance with fantasy.
KAI doing it on batches..they already prepared more internal bay in next batches..becaused they doing it on realistic approaches not fantasy approach like uou describe on TFX.

TFX is the one that should be put to lid..and just stay with buying F-35..as long as US still allowed it..