While I’m aware that these days USMC Hornet squadrons from part of carrier strike wings on a regular basis, and the USMC had ordered 80 F35C so this can continue how common was this practice in the past? I’m aware that during the transition to the Hornet in the 80s USMC A6s were part of interim CVWs and USMC RF4Bs formed the recon element of some CVWs after the RA5C retired in 1979. But what else happened?
How do the Marines feel about their sqns being part of CVWs? Obviously they buy USN aircraft and have some sort of budget pairing with the USN, but I’d think that they’d buy their aircraft for their own missions and when they are doing USN missions their own USMC missions and training would suffer. Or is this not a problem and the USMC sqns not doing not doing missions which are different from the USMC roles such as BarCAP and anti-shipping, instead focusing on CAP/fighter escort and strike/CAS sort of roles.
How easily do USMC sqs get their car-quals? Is this easy because it’s something the USMC does as a matter of course, or is it an effort because it is something very new?
A lot of questions I know, but my mind is swirling.
By: Riaino - 27th July 2013 at 06:11
The pairing of F8 and F4 on carriers didn’t last very long, before long the big carriers had only F4s in their CVWs. I assume that an Essex was among the mix of carriers on Yankee station so F8 squadrons were available for strikes.
A vanilla CVW as possible is a good thing in terms economy of operation, sortie generation and the like. But its not so good for photo opportunities for aeroplane geeks like me.
By: Bager1968 - 27th July 2013 at 05:21
I’ve been reading through the deployments, especially in the Vietnam era and have noticed some interesting things.
There are many deployments in the mid 60s on the big carriers where CVWs have a Crusader and Phantom squadron. But the same doesn’t happen with the transition from Skyhawk to Corsair II, one deployment the CVW will have all Skyhawk sqns and the next will have all Corsair sqns.
The Phantoms were the “all-weather BVR fleet-defense” fighter (replacing the F3H Demons), and the Crusaders were the “limited-all-weather WVR dogfighter” (replacing the F11F Tiger and the F4D Skyray)… they were partners, not competitors. The USN had a history of having a “hi-lo” fighter type pair aboard their carriers from the late 1940s on, and when the F-14 replaced the F-4 as the “all-weather BVR fleet-defense” fighter the F-4 dropped to the “low” slot (replacing the F-8), because of its “strike-fighter” capabilities.
The shift from the Skyhawk to the Corsair II required a significant investment in support equipment and personnel… a new engine type (TF41), new avionics, and so on. ~90% of the A-4 support equipment was usable for A-6s (same J52 engine), E-2s, and so on (radios, etc). With the delay required to fit the new support equipment it was easy to just assign two light attack squadrons with the same aircraft, to reduce logistics burden and personnel needs.
Another is that the 61 rebuilt F8B (F8L) and 87 rebuilt F8C (F8K) don’t seem to have been deployed on carriers, but the 225 rebuilt F8D&E (F8H&J) did get deployed on the last Essex class cruises. Perhaps the F8L&K went to the Marines or USN reserve sqns?
Interesting.
Exactly… the Marines and Navy Reserves got the rebuilds of the earlier models and the sea-going Navy got the rebuilds of the later models.
By: 19kilo10 - 27th July 2013 at 03:42
Most Marine attack units in the Vietnam War were land based out of Da Nang.
By: Riaino - 27th July 2013 at 02:16
I’ve been reading through the deployments, especially in the Vietnam era and have noticed some interesting things.
There are many deployments in the mid 60s on the big carriers where CVWs have a Crusader and Phantom squadron. But the same doesn’t happen with the transition from Skyhawk to Corsair II, one deployment the CVW will have all Skyhawk sqns and the next will have all Corsair sqns.
Another is that the 61 rebuilt F8B (F8L) and 87 rebuilt F8C (F8K) don’t seem to have been deployed on carriers, but the 225 rebuilt F8D&E (F8H&J) did get deployed on the last Essex class cruises. Perhaps the F8L&K went to the Marines or USN reserve sqns?
Also the Marines didn’t appear to send many sqns to carriers during the Vietnam era and it appears piecemeal afterwards.
Interesting.
By: Riaino - 26th July 2013 at 06:53
Got it this time, found the USMC F4B sqn on Forrestal that had a plane ‘tagged’ on Ark Royal, VFMA 531, sometime between Sept 72 and July 73.
By: Bager1968 - 26th July 2013 at 05:16
I’d love to know how regular embarking USMC sqns on carriers was in the 70s and 80s.
Go to this website: http://navysite.de/carriers.htm
Click on the name of the carrier you want to look at, then scroll down until you find a sentence like
Click here to get a view of the deployments of USS ORISKANY
Click on the hyperlink and you will get a chronological table of the carrier’s deployments, which will include squadron designation and aircraft type.
Taking the first deployment of CV-34 as an example, we find:
Date of Departure: May 15, 1951; Date of Return: October 4, 1951; Cruise Book: N/A; CVW: CVG-4; Squadrons (Aircraft): VF-43 (F4U-5); VF-62 (F2H-2); VA-45 (AD-2); VMF-122 (F2H-2); VC-4 Det. 8 (F4U-5N); VC-12 Det. 8 (AD4-W); VC-33 Det. 8; VC-62 Det. 8-51 (F8F-2P); HU-2 Det. 8 (HO3S-1); Tail code: F; Area of Operations: Mediterranean; Battle Group: N/A; Operations/Exercises: Operation Beehive; Ports of Call: Augusta, Sicily, Italy; Athens, Greece; Iraklion, Crete, Greece; Tripoli, Lybia; Naples, Italy; La Spezia, Italy; Cannes, France; Izmir, Turkey; Genoa, Italy; Gibraltar
So, in 1951 USS Oriskany CV-34 deployed with one Marine Corps F2H Banshee jet fighter squadron aboard (VMF-122).
Her next deployment with a Marine squadron was in 1962, with VMF-232 (F8U-1E) {F-8B Crusaders}.
By: 35 AoA - 26th July 2013 at 01:10
I know they deployed F-4N and RF-4B, as well as A-6’s to CVN’s through the 1970’s/1980’s. VMFA’s all transitioned to F/A-18 in the early-mid 1980’s, and actually, the Marines had the first operational Hornets (before the Navy)….VMFA-314
By: Riaino - 25th July 2013 at 09:26
I’ve got pictures of USMC Phantoms on HMS Ark Royal, tagged with the Omega tail markings of 892 squadron, very cool. I’d love to know how regular embarking USMC sqns on carriers was in the 70s and 80s.
By: 35 AoA - 25th July 2013 at 04:36
No they deploy on carriers. They are mostly land based Hornets which they are primarily night attack Hornets. Mostly the F/A-18B’s are the one’s that mostly deploy on carriers.
Double negative. F/A-18D’s do not ever deploy on carriers, though there are plenty of pics out there of FRS -B/-D’s getting traps. The -B was never even an operational aircraft…..designed as a trainer from the beginning.
By: thobbes - 25th July 2013 at 03:52
Thanks guys.
By: Arabella-Cox - 25th July 2013 at 03:13
Do VMFA(AW) squadrons equipped with F/A-18D deploy on carriers?
None are assigned to USN Carrier Air Wings. Yet, they’re capable of operating from carriers if necessary…………
By: Viper076 - 25th July 2013 at 00:48
Do VMFA(AW) squadrons equipped with F/A-18D deploy on carriers?
No they deploy on carriers. They are mostly land based Hornets which they are primarily night attack Hornets. Mostly the F/A-18B’s are the one’s that mostly deploy on carriers.
By: thobbes - 25th July 2013 at 00:33
Do VMFA(AW) squadrons equipped with F/A-18D deploy on carriers?
By: 19kilo10 - 10th April 2013 at 23:20
Would it be accurate to say the Marines started to get more independence when they went for the A-4M instead of the A-7?
By: Bager1968 - 10th April 2013 at 23:11
Information on what squadrons were aboard which carriers when from after the end of WW2 on can be found on this site: http://navysite.de/carriers.htm
Click on the carrier you want to look at, then find a sentence like this:
Click here to get a view of the deployments of USS ORISKANY
and click on the hyper-linked word and you will get a page like this: http://navysite.de/cv/cv34deploy.htm
And we see that the first deployment of USS Oriskany CV-34 in 1951 included a Marine fighter squadron (VMF-122, flying McDonnell Banshees):
Date of Departure – Date of Return – CVW – Squadrons (Aircraft) – Tail code – Area of Operations – Battle Group – Operations/Exercises – Ports of Call
May 15, 1951 – October 4, 1951 – CVG-4 – VF-43 (F4U-5), VF-62 (F2H-2), VA-45 (AD-2), VMF-122 (F2H-2), VC-4 Det. 8 (F4U-5N), VC-12 Det. 8 (AD4-W), VC-33 Det. 8, VC-62 Det. 8-51 (F8F-2P), HU-2 Det. 8 (HO3S-1) – F – Mediterranean – Operation Beehive – Augusta, Sicily, Italy; Athens, Greece; Iraklion, Crete, Greece; Tripoli, Lybia; Naples, Italy; La Spezia, Italy; Cannes, France; Izmir, Turkey; Genoa, Italy; Gibraltar
By: Riaino - 10th April 2013 at 13:36
Anyway, back to Marines on Carriers. While it was pointed out that since 2002 the USN/USMC have been undertaking a complete and strategic TacAir integration plan, from which both force derive benefits what about previously?
Without a formal and strategic TacAir integration plan how did the USN get the USMC A6 squadrons and RF4B detachments onto carriers in the 80s? Does the USN request up the chain to the Dept and the Dept directs the USMC to make it happen, or does the CNO go to the Commandant and tell him about the capability gap he’s facing and the Commandant offers USMC aircraft, or what?
Did it happen much/at all in the Vietnam era?
By: Arabella-Cox - 10th April 2013 at 07:36
http://www.usafa.edu/superintendent/pa/factsheets/quick.htm
Looking deeper, it seems that this is normally pre-arranged between the services, and involves an attendee of the appropriate other service academy commissioning into the USAF.
Similarly, it seems that the numbers of USMA graduates commissioning into the USMC has dropped since the 1980s, which was when I heard of this from Marine officers I was serving with.
Here is an obit for a graduate of the USMA class of 1960— one of 7 members of that class to commission as USMC officers.
http://apps.westpointaog.org/Memorials/Article/23275/
Interesting and thanks for the informations.
BTW Upon Graduation from the US Merchant Marines. They’re all given a Commission in the US Naval Reserve.
By: Bager1968 - 10th April 2013 at 06:56
http://www.usafa.edu/superintendent/pa/factsheets/quick.htm
387 graduates have been commissioned by other services; 127 by the Marine Corps, 125 by the Navy, and 135 by the Army.
Looking deeper, it seems that this is normally pre-arranged between the services, and involves an attendee of the appropriate other service academy commissioning into the USAF.
Similarly, it seems that the numbers of USMA graduates commissioning into the USMC has dropped since the 1980s, which was when I heard of this from Marine officers I was serving with.
Here is an obit for a graduate of the USMA class of 1960— one of 7 members of that class to commission as USMC officers.
http://apps.westpointaog.org/Memorials/Article/23275/
By: Arabella-Cox - 10th April 2013 at 06:45
I agree.
The result is a second army and a second airforce.
Thoiugh they’ve arguably been this since Korea.
Never understood the need for duplicate forces.
hmmm, so maybe USAF Aircraft should fly from USN Aircraft Carriers.:rolleyes:
By: thobbes - 10th April 2013 at 06:25
But anyhow……I would say the Marines, while technicaly part of the Navy, have grown more and more independant of them in the last 20 years or so, and are now all but an independant branch of service.
I agree.
The result is a second army and a second airforce.
Thoiugh they’ve arguably been this since Korea.
Never understood the need for duplicate forces.
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April 5, 2013 at 11:13 am