Submarine anti-air

RMK30 on Mureana (similar solution to SLAM, but with gun instead of missiles)

So this blowpipe system and others like it were obviously intended to protect the sub when on, or near the surface, when at there most threatened. So anyone what to discuss why the german navy see the need to have a surface to air missile(with limited surface attack threat) that is fired from a subs torpedo tube, and therefore usable when the vessel is at its most hidden?

German navy operates subs often/mainly in the confined, shallow waters of the Baltic (as opposed to e.g. the deep open North Atlantic). Hence the use on Type 212A of non-magnetic steel and regular seel on Type 214. I.e. the sub is more likely to not have anywhere to go to avoid detection. Hence, an option that gives it a fighting chance makes good sense.

Also as the blowpipe system doesn’t seem to have been utilized, what other protection do subs have when in such vunerable positions? Is it just a case of grap a GMPG from the weapons locker? Or even a stinger/javelin depending on the threat? Do subs carry these kind of weapons? I’m talking, as earlier on transit of shallow passage-suez/panama canals etc

You don’t want to have to surface. Schnorkling at speed (on air breathing diesels) while having capability to fend of heli’s or MPA’s…

I.e. this is for SSKs not for SSNs (which can run sustained high speed underwater)

I do not believe they have any kind of air search radar.

I think sonar can pick up airborne noise through water plus airborne threats may be dropping sonar buoys (splashes) or employ active dipping sonars (pinging). You might also have a mast mounted passive (IR/TI) detection device like ADAD.

So this blowpipe system and others like it were obviously intended to protect the sub when on, or near the surface, when at there most threatened. So anyone what to discuss why the german navy see the need to have a surface to air missile(with limited surface attack threat) that is fired from a subs torpedo tube, and therefore usable when the vessel is at its most hidden?

Also as the blowpipe system doesn’t seem to have been utilized, what other protection do subs have when in such vunerable positions? Is it just a case of grap a GMPG from the weapons locker? Or even a stinger/javelin depending on the threat? Do subs carry these kind of weapons? I’m talking, as earlier on transit of shallow passage-suez/panama canals etc

I do not believe they have any kind of air search radar.

German-designed, British-builr subs, said to have SLAM – a British short-range SAM system using the Blowpipe missile. But I’m not sure it was ever confirmed it was fitted.

i.e. Israeli submarine type 540 Gal class 😉

Key question for effectiveness would be: can sub detect heli/mpa with sufficient accuracy to move to periscope depth, raise the SLAM mast and engage (considering effective range of Blowpipe being 3,5 km, not a riskless venture …)

Anti-Air missile (“Blowpipe” or SLAM) system on Aeneas (the ‘SSG’) in the mid-70s.

In view of the threat by ASW helicopters and -airplanes faced, at the beginning of the 70’s the Vickers Shipbuilding Group developed the submarine launched anti-air missile system. It employed the Blowpipe missile in a launch canister and a launcher for employment from submarines. In November 1972 tests were successfully completed, on board the HMS Aneas. The SLAM system consisted of a waterproof GRP cylinder, in which the sixfold Blowpipe starter for the underwater travel was protected sunk. If the submarine emerged, be away-folded and the starters driven out hydraulically to the cover, in the tower of the submarine the accommodated, GRP receiver (max. pressure load 7,000 kg/m ²) had to be fired. The firing and the steering of the missiles happened from board of the submarine: The contactors the goal would have selected over the periscope, with which the Blowpipe launcher (the launcher swivelled with the periscope in firing direction) was connected, and over a television screen would have pursued. If one would have shot a fiber plastic, would be the connection between launcher and search periscope separated and those the fiber plastic would be by means of thumb-joystick, steered on board accommodated control system, while one would have pursued the goal on the screen. Like Blowpipe, also SLAM would have been against aircraft applicable, ships, in particular probably smaller patrol boats or did not only arm clearing-up ships insufficiently, have been likewise attacked could. SLAM was operational up to a swell around strength 4 and a temperature range from 0°C to 55°C. Beside the test ship, which was HMS Aneas, the only well-known user system the Israeli navy, which had equipped with it their three, meanwhile except service placed, submarines of the French Agosta class.
(machine translated from German: http://www.whq-forum.de/cms/39.0.html)

HMS Aeneas (P427), named after the hero Aeneas from Greek mythology, was an Amphion-class submarine of the Royal Navy, built by Cammell Laird and launched 9 October 1945.[1]

In 1972 Aeneas was hired by Vickers for use in what proved to be successful trials of the Submarine-Launched Airflight Missile (SLAM) system, an anti aircraft system using a cluster of four Shorts Blowpipe missiles on an extendable mast, allowing attacks against low flying aircraft while the submarine was at periscope depth.

Aeneas was broken up in 1974.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Aeneas_(P427)

In Tom Clancy’s Red Storm Rising an Aussie P-3 reports being shot at by a sub-launched SAM. I remember this because it’s the only mention Australia rates in the entire novel. 😀

German-designed, British-builr subs, said to have SLAM – a British short-range SAM system using the Blowpipe missile. But I’m not sure it was ever confirmed it was fitted.

I think that the Israeli submarine type 540 Gal class was designed with its own air defense system SAM and was the first of its kind, but the system did not long in service and may not have been in practice where it was removed later.

co-ordinates has to be rather spot on, so by the time next shopper arrive, it’ll have to start dipping again.
I’m not arguing helo hunting should be standard practice, but it does provide the ability to shoot back, and in so doing greatly complicate the sub-hunting, that until now has gone un-challenged for airborne assets.

It wouldn’t have to be dipping anymore. The sub just announced where it’s at and all units would be converging on it’s location.

Assuming the helo went dipping there for a reason, like if a contact had been made, then that helo will have a merry good time sniffing around while making jokes over the pathetic sods down there that can’t do squat but praying.
If that sub OTOH has a couple of sub launched IR missiles, then that helo most likely will have to give up dipping altogether, or die pre-maturely.
It severely complicates the task of the would be bully hunter.
The counter in all likelihood will be unmanned aerial sub-hunters UASh? 😉

If it’s caught in that position, it’s kinda screwed.

But if the sub isn’t well hidden, if its caught in shallow waters, if its damaged and needs to surface, Or even in a situation where an aircraft does not pose a threat to it, but who’s actions are hostile. Think of unarmed, mark one eyeball patrol aircraft, snooping round where spec op’s need to are be inserted in a certain time frame(think pirates/drug runners having taken civilians hostage, rescue attempt going in or whatever, use your imagination!)

Yeah. 90% of the time it may well be the case that going deep or whatever is the better option, but there’s always the other 10%. Course it then becomes a question of cost/benefit, but let’s not make like there is no benefit.

http://maschinenbau.gabler-luebeck.de/de/entwicklungen/eigenschutz/index.html

Triple M hoistable mast for subs: can be equipped with Mauser RMK 30mm cannon. That would allow a sub to engage a target with guinfire while submerged. Possibly in such a manner, one could also deploy MANPADS while submerged.

Back in the early eighties I was given a defence equipment catalogue containing UK defence equipment for export, which included a submarine mounted antiaircraft system. Basically it was 6 blowpipe missles wrapped around an optical guidance system. It was designed to be retract into the conning tower of the sub. I don’t know if it ever attracted any sales.

But if the sub isn’t well hidden, if its caught in shallow waters, if its damaged and needs to surface, Or even in a situation where an aircraft does not pose a threat to it, but who’s actions are hostile. Think of unarmed, mark one eyeball patrol aircraft, snooping round where spec op’s need to are be inserted in a certain time frame(think pirates/drug runners having taken civilians hostage, rescue attempt going in or whatever, use your imagination!)

So my question to people that say its not needed is, why do the german navy think its needed enough to invent a whole new capability?

Once you fire that missile, other ships, airplanes, and submarines have a pretty good idea where you are. The best option for a sub is to play dead.

Yep once the sub fires it goes from a suspected contact to a verified contact and every unit that is sharing link data with the MPA/Helo the sub just killed knows exactly where the sub is and how big of a box is needed to hunt the sub down in.

Once you fire that missile, other ships, airplanes, and submarines have a pretty good idea where you are. The best option for a sub is to play dead.