next gen USN frigate

Here’s that Spruance mod proposal

The best point of LCS is the huge aviation complex, making it pretty unique.

I think that all this frigate – destroyer – cruiser classification for surface combatants is pretty much passé and mission based classification (e.g. patrol and escort) is more appropriate. Anyway, a good off-the-shelf frigate, if one doesn’t want to go beyond a certain displacement, would be a MEKO A-200, like the South African Valour class. The 3700/4000 tons of that class are also what I’d see as minimum for open water operations with a little endurance, stability, and creature comfort.

Looking at the USN I think they should just take the Burke as a basis, replace the big expensive SPY version with a smaller one or none at all, and do a big flight deck and hangar aft, instead of the VLS hive. I always liked the Japanese Haruna class destroyers. Or if one wants to go a step further, a flight-deck Burke, like that Spruance concept back then could be interesting. Steel if kinda cheap.

I think what will be interesting for a blue water “frigate” with mission description Presence/ASW/Secondary Escort is full being fully networked, having extended ISR capability via smallish UAVs, two (better three) MH-60 class helicopters for serious ASW work, the ability to integrate future ASW sensor USV, and a sonar tail. The offensive mission weapon system could be ASROC on steroids for longer-range ASW, and for convoy protection limited medium-range AAW like RIM-162 or Aster 15. The defensive system should be the standard fit of missile (e.g. MICA VL, CAMM, or RAM) and gun CIWS (e.g. Millennium 35mm) and soft-kill systems.

Say what now? 40 RAM per launcher ready to go? I used to think that not upgrading SeaCat to Lightweight SeaWolf was the most criminal failure to upgrade in Naval History now it looks like second place.

RAM ALS was developed by one Per Udsen of Denmark for use in smaller warships.

As for RAM from Mk 29, see Norman Friedman – The Naval Institute guide to world naval weapon systems 2006 ( books.google.nl/books?isbn=1557502625 ):
Page 592: “It is not clear whether Mk 29 launchers will be modified to fire RAM (according to past reports, they will not).”

The Naval Institute guide to world naval weapons systems, 1997-1998 Norman Friedman ( books.google.nl/books?isbn=1557502684 )
Page 413: “All installations use the 21-rnd mk 49 box launcher. Proposals for modification of the Sea Sparrow and Mk 13 launchers failed, and Hughes’ vertical launcher was rejected for the last LHDs (to avoid introducing a unique system). Proposals have been made for launchers to be mounted alongside the standard U.S. 5 inch gun and atop the Contraves Sea Shield Mount”

DD-963 SPRUANCE-class Design …. RAM missiles were to have been installed, four each in two cells of the Mk 29 Sea Sparrow launcher, in the early 1990s, but the modification has been canceled.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/dd-963-design.htm

8×4 = 32 rounds max of RAM in a Mk29

Iagree A.I. i just dont think the LCS plan is well thought out enough. Galrahns Information Dissmenation site makes some good points that the LCS is the future Unmanned systems mothership instead of frigate which it is being marketed as.

I would envision something around 3-4000 tons, capable of 29knts and has a crew of about 100 (120 with airdet)

IEP propulsion

towed sonar array and UAS capable

its main purpose would be ASW and Volume NSFS but would have adequate air defense RAM and a 8-cell ESSM?

there should also be space reserved for future growth and to support at least a platoon sized SOF element, and a ramp for small boat handling.

Basicly something a lot like the PLAN’s Type 054a frigate. or that smaller FREMM the FM400

FF21 (a step up from the Sa’ar 5). Litton-Ingalls IIRC.

My concern is that FF21 will be the antithesis of LCS. i.e. too many weapons packed onto too small a hull. Stability and speed will be issues surely. Presumably she’ll still suffer from endurance issues?

For size comparison, such a 5-packed set of RAM would also fit in a single cell of the 8-round Mk29 NSSM launcher.

Say what now? 40 RAM per launcher ready to go? I used to think that not upgrading SeaCat to Lightweight SeaWolf was the most criminal failure to upgrade in Naval History now it looks like second place.

I thought LCS tests were going very very well?

Hypothetically (or not) what if further trials do not go so well? What if the specification is a bit off? (Which is a bigger issue than with many programmes since the top speed requirement is such a driver for so many aspects of the design) What if the whole concept is bobbins? What if politically it becomes too hard to defend a system which is so high spec and high cost with so few traditional/visible weapons?

FF21 (a step up from the Sa’ar 5). Litton-Ingalls IIRC. Note the use of the RAM ALS (alternate launcher system). For size comparison, such a 5-packed set of RAM would also fit in a single cell of the 8-round Mk29 NSSM launcher.

lets pretend for a second that LCS doesnt pan out what would or does the USN need in the lines of a general purpose or multi role frigate?

What do you mean? If the designs don’t pan out or if the concept doesn’t pan out? There is a difference. If the designs don’t pan out they build something a bit bigger and slower. Forty knots and 3500 tons. If the concept doesn’t pan out they build modernized and slightly larger OHPs.

However as has been pointed out both designs have done well in trials. I think the only question is whether they can build enough of them cheap enough.

lets pretend for a second that LCS doesnt pan out what would or does the USN need in the lines of a general purpose or multi role frigate?

I thought LCS tests were going very very well?
http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4849&Itemid=363

The speed seems amazing especially given the sea state.

Pre-LCS the USN had done some interesting studies including:

Regional deterrence ship
FF21
Combined Patrol Corvette

Personally I think that the USN is going to need something along these lines EVEN IF LCS pans out

I believe they call it the national security cutter. :dev2:

(they cost even more then the LCS)