LCS exceeds 50 mph in testing

You don’t have to defend anything but you did say

So i was only replying to that which you im pretty sure said from your own thoughts, i’m aware that you did quote and article that gave what that author thinks is a justification of the high speed requirment of the LCS. I personally think the LCS need for speed is bonkers and unjustified as i hope i have portrayed.

Sorry if i have mislead you or gotten the wrong end of a stick.

You’re assuming RIBs or heli-portable equipments. What about other types of gear: e.g. semi-submersibles? Or remotely controlled waterborne vehicles like Rafaels Protector USV? And what about fire-support roles for special forces ops, e.g. using the 40km Non-Line of Sight Launch System (NLOS-LS) from the rear deck. What about minelaying operations (see UK Abdiel class fast minelayers > Speed: 39¾ knots (38 knots full), Range: 1,000 nmi (2,000 km) at 38 knots (70 km/h), specifically designed for the rapid laying of minefields in enemy waters, close to harbours or sea lanes and as such required to be very fast and to possess sufficient anti-aircraft weaponry to defend themselves if discovered by enemy aircraft.). What about evading threats (e.g. submarines, or swarms of small fast boats)? See e.g. French WW2 Malin class > Speed: 45 knots (40 nominal), Range: 1,200 km at 34 knots, 6,600 km at 17 knots > These ships were designed to outclass the large escorts built by the Italian navy and strongly stressed firepower and speed over armour protection. As mentio0ned earlier, as with MBTs: speed is life.

You don’t have to defend anything but you did say

If its personnel only, yes. But what if they have a lot of gear, or a small boat? What can you undersling on a SH/UH60? And how’s the detectability of the LCS relative to a low (or not so low) flying helicopter (think all aspects > sound, radar, visually etc)

So i was only replying to that which you im pretty sure said from your own thoughts, i’m aware that you did quote and article that gave what that author thinks is a justification of the high speed requirment of the LCS. I personally think the LCS need for speed is bonkers and unjustified as i hope i have portrayed.

Sorry if i have mislead you or gotten the wrong end of a stick.

The end effectors would be a combo of RHIB’s that can do over 40knots or even faster helicopters so you really don’t need the LCS to do anywhere near those speeds. Wanshan what gear would you like to take? an SH-60 can sling load over 3,000kg but you either board a suspect vessel or sink it if it does not comply. Most littoral work is Visit Board Search and Seizure (VBSS) which can be done by RHIB’s or helicopters so doesn’t need a 3000ton speed boat burning huge amounts of fuel.

In regards to detectability well the LCS has one hell of a noise signature when moving at speed, 2 MT-30 turbines running at high power not to mention the water being moved. Ok a helo aint that quiet but it’s much faster. Radar, Well it depends most people have surface search radars rather than air search radars and the LCS aint that stealthy especially when moving at speed. So just down to the plain fact that not many people your gonna board have air search radars i would say the helo is less detectable. Visual detectablity is one i don’t really have a clue, depends on weather conditions and many other things.

I personally don’t want to take anything. You’re not going to make me defend an article posted by someone else and written by yet someone else.

The end effectors would be a combo of RHIB’s that can do over 40knots or even faster helicopters so you really don’t need the LCS to do anywhere near those speeds. Wanshan what gear would you like to take? an SH-60 can sling load over 3,000kg but you either board a suspect vessel or sink it if it does not comply. Most littoral work is Visit Board Search and Seizure (VBSS) which can be done by RHIB’s or helicopters so doesn’t need a 3000ton speed boat burning huge amounts of fuel.

In regards to detectability well the LCS has one hell of a noise signature when moving at speed, 2 MT-30 turbines running at high power not to mention the water being moved. Ok a helo aint that quiet but it’s much faster. Radar, Well it depends most people have surface search radars rather than air search radars and the LCS aint that stealthy especially when moving at speed. So just down to the plain fact that not many people your gonna board have air search radars i would say the helo is less detectable. Visual detectablity is one i don’t really have a clue, depends on weather conditions and many other things.

Send your chopper?

If its personnel only, yes. But what if they have a lot of gear, or a small boat? What can you undersling on a SH/UH60? And how’s the detectability of the LCS relative to a low (or not so low) flying helicopter (think all aspects > sound, radar, visually etc)

Tricky to answer that one. The USN is about the only Navy with the right combination of funding, technical knowhow and experience. Thus they may be going LCS alone as only they can. (In a similar vein only USN have multiple CVNs, is this because everyone else is too clever or because no one else has them but wishes that they did)

They do!

Hi Wanshan

high-speed sprints, which may be necessary to avoid/prosecute a small boat or submarine threat, conduct intercept operations over the horizon, or for insertion or extraction missions.

Send your chopper?

Sorry i aint commented back on this thread been using a different computer for the last few days. My view is the LCS design has been ruined so much by the need for speed that it has very little value. The propulsion system takes up far too much of the hull space and dictates a hull design unsuited for the role furthermore this all costs much more money than what is ideal. Hopefully some people on here read Information Dissemination a blog that has covered the LCS in detail covering both the good and the bad.

How does a 3,000 ton warship get into the weeds exactly? It is not a small ship and getting closer to shore is not really relevant. The end effectors are still going to be RHIB’s and helicopters, littoral warfare is mostly about people rather than systems, you have to get people into the crowded littorals to do VBSS roles. The VBSS roles are always done by RHIB’s and helo’s regardless, it dosen’t matter if you are a 3000ton LCS or a 100,000 ton Nimitz class.

As an additional point, i think modern warships do not need speed anymore as helicopters and other effectors can cover for it’s motherships lack of speed. What is needed is endurance, sensors and space.

From his link:

LCS will be a “small, fast, affordable ship: Speed and agility will be critical for efficient and effective conduct of the littoral missions. The LCS must be capable of operating at low speeds for littoral mission operations, transit at economical speeds, and high-speed sprints, which may be necessary to avoid/prosecute a small boat or submarine threat, conduct intercept operations over the horizon, or for insertion or extraction missions.

http://peoships.crane.navy.mil/LCS/program.htm

My thoughts as well. I would like to say I’m in no way trying to upset people and nor am I yank bashing but I just can’t figure out this need for extreme speed.

I cannot either. And I really think that USN has been going down the wrong path a lot recently.

When your in a congested litoral space and a Linx pops out from behind a nearby island and fires a couple of skuas at you from 2-3 miles away being able to go 9 knots faster then other ships can isn’t really going to save you, or is it?

No, lots of soft kill is. Historically USN have been pretty good on loading up on soft kill.

Convince me how this is a good idea. No other navy seems bothered by this concept, are they all wrong?:confused:

Tricky to answer that one. The USN is about the only Navy with the right combination of funding, technical knowhow and experience. Thus they may be going LCS alone as only they can. (In a similar vein only USN have multiple CVNs, is this because everyone else is too clever or because no one else has them but wishes that they did)

My thoughts as well. I would like to say I’m in no way trying to upset people and nor am I yank bashing but I just can’t figure out this need for extreme speed. When your in a congested litoral space and a Linx pops out from behind a nearby island and fires a couple of skuas at you from 2-3 miles away being able to go 9 knots faster then other ships can isn’t really going to save you, or is it? Convince me how this is a good idea. No other navy seems bothered by this concept, are they all wrong?:confused:

Sorry i aint commented back on this thread been using a different computer for the last few days. My view is the LCS design has been ruined so much by the need for speed that it has very little value. The propulsion system takes up far too much of the hull space and dictates a hull design unsuited for the role furthermore this all costs much more money than what is ideal. Hopefully some people on here read Information Dissemination a blog that has covered the LCS in detail covering both the good and the bad.

Sometimes you have to get into the weeds to deal with the threats.

How does a 3,000 ton warship get into the weeds exactly? It is not a small ship and getting closer to shore is not really relevant. The end effectors are still going to be RHIB’s and helicopters, littoral warfare is mostly about people rather than systems, you have to get people into the crowded littorals to do VBSS roles. The VBSS roles are always done by RHIB’s and helo’s regardless, it dosen’t matter if you are a 3000ton LCS or a 100,000 ton Nimitz class.

As an additional point, i think modern warships do not need speed anymore as helicopters and other effectors can cover for it’s motherships lack of speed. What is needed is endurance, sensors and space.

50 mph why? What to do with such speed? New warships are raceships?
French preww2 destroyers did 45 knots… Back to the future or new way of seawar, or new US exentricity after the zumwalt new monitor class?

X?

Sometimes you have to get into the weeds to deal with the threats.

Info:http://peoships.crane.navy.mil/LCS/program.htm

Ok I know I will get harpooned here but just what is the value of being able to do 50mph. If your chasing a fast boat you launch your helicopter. Whats the ships endurance at 50mph, 6-800 miles. Whats your engine, pumpjet, hull life going to be if you use it at that speed all the time and if you don’t whats the point? In the end its an expensive ship with little in the way of armament that might go fast if its endurance allows it. If its got a short enough distance to go that it can go at best speed just how much faster is it going to arrive there then an burke. A day, a few hours? Am now hiding under desk!

Same reasons you’ld prefer a V-22 over a helicopter, or a Cat transport over a regular transport: greater stand-off distance possible relative to target area, given certain time to target.

Thanks spudman, not trying to wind you up but why not stay out in or near blue water and send in your choppers to deal with litoral fast boat, sub threat. I could see the point if the LCS was defending congested home waters but the idea is it invades other peoples litorals?

It is a “Litoral” Combat Ship.

The blue navy has the advantage of a lot of time and space in which to react to a situation. The brown navy does not.

Speed is life.

Ok I know I will get harpooned here but just what is the value of being able to do 50mph. If your chasing a fast boat you launch your helicopter. Whats the ships endurance at 50mph, 6-800 miles. Whats your engine, pumpjet, hull life going to be if you use it at that speed all the time and if you don’t whats the point? In the end its an expensive ship with little in the way of armament that might go fast if its endurance allows it. If its got a short enough distance to go that it can go at best speed just how much faster is it going to arrive there then an burke. A day, a few hours? Am now hiding under desk!

Flubba, I agree with you. The whole ship was designed around the speed requirement and the endurance at any speed is poor, and terrible at high speed. Think a diesel electirc plant and lower speed requirment would have been much better in the long run.

endurance means more then fuel load it is also consumables and provisions.

So, having greater than 90% of the endurance of a Burke DDG at 18 knots is “poor”?

LCS-2: 4,300 mn @18 knots.
DDG-51 class: 4,400 mn @20 knots.

Too fast

Flubba, I agree with you. The whole ship was designed around the speed requirement and the endurance at any speed is poor, and terrible at high speed. Think a diesel electirc plant and lower speed requirment would have been much better in the long run.

Thanks for the post though it’s an intresting read. Random question a member since 2006 and only 56 posts??

While it is true that quantity has a quality of its own, I’ld prefer quality over quantity: so long as those 56 posts were good ones (i.e. unlike this post of mine ;-), I’m happy.
:p