Subject Study- RAN Future LCH

Sirius? I thought her Deck was pretty much unusable due to wind flow issues or something similar?

Not true mate:-

CORRECTING THE RECORD

On this page, we set the record straight to correct any inaccuracies in media reporting of DMO issues.

The Facts

16 August 2007

The Story: Today’s edition of the Courier Mail features an article by Mr Ian McPhedran titled ‘Helicopter ship ban: No-flight deck cost $8m.’ Mr McPhedran claims helicopters have been banned from using the flight deck fitted to the Navy’s replenishment ship HMAS Sirius.

The Facts: Aviation modifications were carried out on HMAS Sirius to provide a Vertical Replenishment (VERTREP) capability. This VERTREP capability involves a helicopter hovering over the ship’s deck to transfer underslung loads, typically pallets of stores or food. The modification also provides a transfer capability which allows the ability to transfer persons or equipment by the helicopter’s winch. The aviation flight deck modifications were designed to accommodate naval helicopter landings in the event of an emergency only, not as part of normal operations.

Source Department of Defence DMO.

Sirius? I thought her Deck was pretty much unusable due to wind flow issues or something similar?

The question is though, how stable would it be after that change?

Would it turn turtle in a 1metre swell let alone a 10 metre swell? 😀

Granted that the center of gravity would change mate, considering Tenix’s success on Sirius I don’t think there’d be much to worry about since they seem to know what they are doing and have successfully employed a modification like this previously- though a thought does come to mind- should ballast become a problem here, then add a similar addition to the mid section just forward of the bridge, this would give back the two .50cal positions I deleted and also add more internal berthing space to embark troops for a longer journey (say Townsville to Noumea in a mini Tobruk fashion)

I got a bit bored and thought I’d have a crack at this design stuff.

What I did here was add a flight deck to the standard Caiman200 design which I do seem to favour for this project. The aft is slightly enclosed aka Tobruk fashion but the landing grappels are still exposed, I moved the comms antenas around a bit to allow flight ops and I added an MRH-90 (borrowed it from Stan Hyd’s Mornington Class OPV design) to give the desired effect.

The added internal area would create extra room for the surgery mentioned on one side of the vessel and on the other side the increased fresh water equipment and possibly some extra storage room- maybe even enough room for a holding room for immigrants or unlawful people.

The question is though, how stable would it be after that change?

Would it turn turtle in a 1metre swell let alone a 10 metre swell? 😀

I got a bit bored and thought I’d have a crack at this design stuff.

What I did here was add a flight deck to the standard Caiman200 design which I do seem to favour for this project. The aft is slightly enclosed aka Tobruk fashion but the landing grappels are still exposed, I moved the comms antenas around a bit to allow flight ops and I added an MRH-90 (borrowed it from Stan Hyd’s Mornington Class OPV design) to give the desired effect.

The added internal area would create extra room for the surgery mentioned on one side of the vessel and on the other side the increased fresh water equipment and possibly some extra storage room- maybe even enough room for a holding room for immigrants or unlawful people.

Ok on the sub factor, I will call it a halt here and start a thread on it, so please, no more talk about subs on this thread.

As for the replacement LCH, the navy has already listed their requirements which are at the top of the thread, but I am happy to list these again and expand on them since time has passed and more info is coming out:

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Again I state that Besson and it’s likes are perfect but too big, so my only conclusion atm comes to a draw between the Caimen 200 and the L-CAT.

Personally I like the Caimen 200 design as it does indeed suit our needs a lot better and any Aussification would not impact heavily on the base design. Now if we could talk the RNZN into getting at least two as well, then I can’t see why unit costs wouldn’t be a bargin! And if the Kiwi’s did opt for them, it would boost their role in the area (some places would rather have the Kiwi’s than Aussies) and expand their Landing and logistics fleet beyond that of only having Canterbury!

I still think though that the Austral MRV might have a chance in this comp, especially off the back of the success the LCS is having over in the US, as everyone here knows, the RAN likes commonality with the USN in most respects. And if I was making the choice, I’d opt for this vessel!

If the RAN decides to go for an SSN, wouldn’t the French Barracuda be a better choice than the UK Astute or US Virginia? I know it might not be a popular choice, being less capable, but I can think of at least 5 reasons why Barracuda would make sense:

– Crewing requirements: Barracuda only has 60 crew (similar to Collins) versus 100 for Astute and 130 for Virginia.

– Cost: Barracuda costs $1.4B per hull ($2B including all development costs & taxes which the RAN won’t have to pay). Virginia costs 2x as much ($2.8B excluding development costs), Astute is somewhere in between ($2.1B including development costs but excluding taxes I believe).

– Tech transfer: DCNS are very experienced in submarine tech transfer, having built Agostas/Scorpenes in Pakistan, India and Brazil. The US and UK have zero experience in this respect. Also, not sure whether the UK can even sell Astute given how much help they got from the US?

– Littoral capability: Obviously smaller is better (5,300t vs 7,600t-7,900t). Also Barracuda seems to be designed with maneuverability in mind (X-shaped stern planes).

– “Civilian” nuclear reactor fuel: might help get public support by framing this as a safer, cleaner solution than military grade enriched uranium, and would neutralize any concerns about Australia’s support for nuclear non-proliferation and disposal issues (the French could take spent rods back and reprocess them).

Ja: re: the LCU-2000, I was mostly suggesting it because it is basically a direct replacement for the LCH. If you want to go bigger, then obviously something like an enlarged BATRAL/Caimen or even Besson type LSV would be options. A combination of the Caimen 200 and a couple of Austal HSVs would give excellent regional lift capability.

As for the submarine problem, I think the only option is going to be nuclear, either a proper nuclear sub, a la Virginia, or a tea-kettle type using a small reactor for base-load running. The best option might well end up being to simply persuade either the US or UK to license one of their designs. Any alternative option, e.g. trying to turn the Collins design into a nuclear sub is likely to cost a heck of a lot more.

L-Cat trials. The user has more footage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGYUaLzEh08

This footage is from an on board view of the footage I supplied above, but very interesting none the less, thanks for sharing (been very interested in the other videos the user has though- especially the PACSCAT- that would make an ideal LCM8 replacement since the LCM2000 class failed!

Ja Worsley, you have a Subject Study- RAN Future LCH, Subject Study -RAN Future OPC, Subject Study- RAN Future AOR, Subject Study= RAN Future FFG. Now how about starting a Subject Study – RAN Future Submarine (Collins Replacement)?

I thought about that but this development is under too strict a guideline to offer any real competition- basically the way the RAN are looking at it, they want a Virginia class boat with Fuel Cells and Super Conductors- not really viable given the maturity of the technology (and it’s forecasts). The RAN are going to have to bight the bullet and the government will have to stop listening to the minorities and just go nuke!

The general public knows diddley squat about nuclear power nor about how safe it really is- wait a few years and those grey power members would have shuffled off the mortal coil and with them will go the preconceptions about the dangers of nuclear power- those WWII members who are still around will soon pass and with them memories of Japan. Fission and Fusion can then be introduced as a logical step forward!

L-Cat trials. The user has more footage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGYUaLzEh08

Ja Worsley, you have a Subject Study- RAN Future LCH, Subject Study -RAN Future OPC, Subject Study- RAN Future AOR, Subject Study= RAN Future FFG. Now how about starting a Subject Study – RAN Future Submarine (Collins Replacement)?

Ed: mate I appreciate your looking into this topic but those vessels are actually too small for what the RAN are looking for- they seem to be roughly the same size as what we have already in service and are therefore not really much of a replacement- sorry

As stated at the top, they are looking for a vessel that can possible handle a helo as well, I doubt the LCU2000 could take anything bigger than a B206 IF it had that capability. And the idea of deploying from a ro/ro is not what the RAN are looking for, they want a vessel that can self deploy with a decent speed and sea keeping qualities above those found in the current LCH vessels. These would be more akin to a replacement for the LCM8’s of the army.

I was reading around this area over the last couple of days, and I came across something interesting! The LCU-2000, which is operated by the US Army for intra-theatre logistics, could be ideal for the job, if we are to stick to a pretty straightforward LCH replacement. The LCU-2000 can transport five M1A1 tanks, or 12 ISO containers (24 if double stacked). The crucial thing, and the whole reason for me suggesting this, is that (as I just discovered) the LCU-2000 can be transported on the deck of a RoRo. The MV Strong Virginian embarked four LCU-2000s, and moved them from the UK to Diego Garcia. This ability could be very useful, allowing them to be moved rapidly in support of overseas deployments.

This could allow them to be deployed alongside the new Canberra class amphibs and whatever replaces the last Kanimbla/Manoora. The first waves come ashore by helicopter and the LCMs carried by the LHDs, the second wave would hopefully come from a (big but cheap) LPD/LSD (e.g. the British Bay class, but with a bigger dock). The heavy logistics support and reinforcements can then come ashore on the roll-on roll-off ship, using these LCUs/LCHs.

They could also be deployed to support humanitarian missions, such as regional disaster response (e.g. Indonesia, Samoa and the Philippines at the moment) on the deck of a single RoRo. The RoRo deploys with them on deck, arrives, offloads the LCUs and then uses them to shuttle support ashore, without needing access to proper port facilities, which may be unavailable.

I am not necessarily saying that the LCU2000 itself is perfect, but more that a very similar design, built from the start to be capable of being lifted onto the deck of a RoRo, would be ideal for the job.

[Images are US DoD public domain ones]

Random point but this is i think the only one of your threads that has stuck close enough to the topic. Fair point it is a huge ship like HMAS Tobruk almost, I would imagine the Philipino vessels will be currently earning their keep with the current flooding and massive amount of aid that will appear and need moved.

One thing that i have noticed is that there are no reports of the mighty USN coming to save the day like they done after the boxing day tsunami years ago. They gave a commendable amount of time and effort in that situation.

Fair point maybe a ship for the Pacific region then with all the small islands. I’ve seen a picture of the phillipines navy one and i dont like that Helo deck one bit. Nice ships though and handy for the isand nature of the country.

The Main thing about the Phillipino one is that the equivilant ship in the RAN is HMAS Tobruk. So to replace a smaller class of vessels as this study is looking at, with a vessel of a larger category is basically out of the scope of this study.

Fair point maybe a ship for the Pacific region then with all the small islands. I’ve seen a picture of the phillipines navy one and i dont like that Helo deck one bit. Nice ships though and handy for the isand nature of the country.

Yeah this thing is massive, too big for what is needed. One of the US only design i suppose as in too big for most nations to bother with.

Well the Phillipines Navy has one

Yeah this thing is massive, too big for what is needed. One of the US only design i suppose as in too big for most nations to bother with.

Dont suppose that would be one of them?? If so 🙁 damn. Nice big ship that anyhow, maybe extend the stern and add a helo deck?

Yeah that is one of them- see right up front the pennant number LSV-7, this is “The new Army logistic support vessel SSGT Robert T. Kuroda has arrived at its home port of Honolulu, Hawaii, after a 5,000-mile delivery voyage from Pascagoula, Miss”.

She is a new build of the Besson class of which 3 more have been ordered and are slightly bigger than the Besson Class- the trouble here is that we are now starting to get too big for the replacement subject.

If we were to go for this class, then an organic air component would be a must not a maybe

Dont suppose that would be one of them?? If so 🙁 damn. Nice big ship that anyhow, maybe extend the stern and add a helo deck?