Hello everyone…after a very long time….Thought of starting a thread for some reality checks for some of the Indian Naval deals. I intend to keep this thread for those interested in knowing ground realities, so all are welcome. Those not interested can keep out. Thanks in Advance.
I’m pulling in Scorpene & INS Vikramaditya initially as in both these deals undue mudslugging have been done to hide the incompetancy of the recepient in planning/decision making (more so, in the case of INS Vikramaditya & IAC) and absoultely baseless allegation against the Russians in the case of Scorpene. This was originally intended to be posted last year at some other forum….
I will start with Scorpene submarines.
Allegations (mostly promoted by “experts”, for them there are no other issues with Scorpene deal)
1) IN’s Scorpene submarines are not armed with Brahmos ASCM because of the Russians.
———————————–
But no one asked these Questions
1) Why IN’s Scorpene subs are not armed with 300Km range Klub 3M-54?
2) 3M-54 is the MTRC’ed version of the 2,400+km range 3M-10 strategic cruise missile, which can be “restored” to its “original” form under some “consultancy”.
3) Why and who is responsible for not integrating it with Scorpene?
4) Is the scorpenes weapons room capable of atleast carrying the Klub 3M-54 missiles?
5) Is the Scorpene – in the first place – capable enough to be equipped with much larger & powerful Brahmos/Yakhont cruise missiles???
6) Why the “experts” does not point any finger on the less capable Exocet missiles, initial order of which – probably – costs more than what India paid for getting the ToT of Yakhont missile.
7) A lot of bitching is going on for the price increase in the case of INS Vikramaditya. But steep price increase in Scorpene deal from the first ($1.8billion) to the signed value ($2.5+billion) is completely ignored. (Hope, u guys will correct the signed contract value if its wrong)
8) Ex-admiral who presided over the deal have issues only with the carrier and opens his mouth against price increase. Didn’t he find/feel any price increase. Or is it just that material/production price/cost increase happend only outside Russia??
9) What was he doing w.r.t to the Scorpene armament issue??? Was he an incompetent idiot who signed the deal with his brain & eyes closed??!!
10) Its also very funny to see that none of the “experts” ever made a slightest remarks on the question of Scorpenes capablity to integrate Brahmos, rather they were bitching the Russians with their “expertise”. Real “quality” indeed!
The above question will remain but the bitter fact that will remain forever is that Indian Navy’s new Scorpene class submarines will NEVER fire Brahmos anti-ship/land attack cruise missiles in its current form!!! So those who still want to bitch the Russians for anything & everything can keep doing the same, but that won’t change the reality with the Indian Navy’s newest U-ndersea boats.
Will the above reality drop some common sense into the “expert” brains??…well lets wait & watch.
By: Fedaykin - 4th September 2009 at 18:18
INS Vikramaditya (ex-Gorshkov)
INS Vikramaditya contoversies are almost never ending, kept alive by the “experts” who skipped the basics regarding the ship, deal, progress of work and related developments, except for controversial stuffs from the loose media. Let me list some of the basics of the INS Vikramaditya deal (I won’t get surprised if FAQs like the “source” are taken up. Because, thats how ignorant people have been w.r.t the INS Vikramaditya.
INS Vikramaditya deal & major events
1) INS Vikramaditya deal signed in January 2004
2) ~$740 million is for ships modification & ~$940 million (u can correct the figures if necessary)
3) A little over $600 million will go to Sevmash for upgrading the ship. (refer www.sevmash.ru)
—– Deals outside Sevmash
————- 8 + 1 boilers form SDB (all delivered by mid-2006)
————- 4 x 1,500kW Genset from Wartsilla for Electricy Generation
————- Underwater comm and related equipment from Keletron.
————- etc4) Gorshkov moved to Sevmash dry dock in Dec 2005 after stripping. (www.sevmash.ru)
5) Maximum work to be completed, including major works like new equipment installation, deck extension, propulsion etc etc to be finished before launch.(www.sevmash.ru)
6) Launch planned for November 2006 after completion of the above works. (www.sevmash.ru)
7) Indian delegation visit Sevmash in June 2006. (www.sevmash.ru)
8) Sevmash conveys to the Indian delegation regarding additional work involved. Indian delegation head confirms the delay due to additional work. He says its unfortunate, but hopes to see the work completion in 2 years. i.e Dec 2008 (www.sevmash.ru)
9) Approx $400 million of the $600 million for Sevmash have been transferred for the work by 2006 end.
After June 2006 visit of the Indian delegation, its most likely that the no further funds was made available to Sevmash and hence the work was halted. Its probably after the work on INS Vikramaditya was halted that Sevmash moved the workforce from the carrier to other projects.
——— between June 2006 and mid-2007 there is hardly much news ——
10) mid-2007, some _____ from the Janes pullout what happened in June 2006 and gets success with their “hot” & “scoop” story and screams —–> Gorshkov modification facing major trouble. All others follows with their own theme and speculation.
IN and media pulls out the Russians for moving the workers to other project is, but the reason behind moving workers to other projects is kept-under.
11) Nov 2007, ex-chief scream out on additional work and price increase….. What the hell was he doing when he was in charge??? His successor screams the same in same words (refer the words printed in paper, one wonders who actually wrote for whom or who wrote it for them)
12) Dec 2007-Jan 2008 —- Sevmash “opens up” with new images, Gorshkov with completed ski-jump is flashed…..and draught ridden online community are greeted with an almost formed STOBAR carrier.
More pictures of the carrier arrive by 2008-end. INS Vikramaditya – in most likely service colour – is an eye candy. Truly a Beauty.
13) Nov-Dec 2008 —- even as the media was allout with their planted story regarding Indian Navy ditching the carrier, Indian Naval Chief Sureesh Mehta held a press conference on Mumbai terrorists attacks. Noteable among the press conference was the large banner in the background.
None of the “experts” noticed it nor its importance and the reason why not much photos are available or vedios nor any mention of it anywhere online.
The significance was that —– the background banner had in it a large photo of INS Vikramaditya at Sevmash drydock getting ready for launch. That simple background conveyed how much IMPORTANT INS Vikramaditya was for Indian Navy. But ignorant of this, the “experts” went out on their routine.
This is the first time that I ever saw Indian Navy doing a press conference with a ship thats was still under construction!
14) INS Vikramaditya is launched in Dec 2008, everyone hoping to see a final price negotiation to conclude.
15) 2009…..But, the final price not yet reached. Media as usual went with their on own baseless figures from unnamed Russian sources, where as Russian media quote these Indian media to report the same.
Surpriing is the fact that none of the media or “experts” DARED to use the Right To Information act to get the figures regarding how much was paid to the Russians during the years for Gorshkov modification and rather kept on with their “motivated” reports. Its wonderfully a very “transparent” system!
16) August 2009 …..
Even 3 years after Sevmash conveyed the Indian delegation regarding the additional work and delays, the question of how much more to pay and how much already paid after the Russian demand remains unclear.
Its a DAMN 1095 days thats been wasted due to the incompetants decision makers sitting at the top. And still all the blame is on the Russians, when in 3 years time India could have taken the decision to either keep the ship or let it go and demand the refund!
Among the incompetants in the whole saga, the definite two who should never be cleared for their incompetance in decision making are the Ex-chief and the present Chief. 1095 wasted days since Sevmash first conveyed the delays to the Indian Delegation. What a shame!
The list of charges against the modified ship was plenty, with some of them now having
silenced….
A prominent charge among that was —
1) Simultaneous T/O & landing impaired due to the ships past STOVL status…
All this said….will the people have the courage to speak out against our own incompetancy???
Well when it comes to STOBAR operations you pretty much have no choice but to put the take off spots on the angled deck if you want to get off the deck with any kind of reasonable load.
The bigger Admiral Kuznetsov has the same issue and actually even with the far larger CATOBAR Nimitz class you can’t operate the waist cats during landing operations for obvious reasons.
India won’t be operating enough aircraft off the Vikramaditya or the new Viraat for simultanious take offs and landings, they will launch aircraft then go onto a downleg before turning back into wind for landing operations.
By: zero - 3rd September 2009 at 08:39
Austin,
Scorpene will never have Brahmos as its armament in its current form. Now….will the French modify their combat systems to integrate the Klub series and what they do with VLS modification is what we have to wait and watch.
As per the initial reports, from the 7th Scorpenes onwards, India would enlarge the design as it would have acquired the design capability. Any combat system could be integrated in it.
By: Black_Cat - 2nd September 2009 at 23:47
Austin,
First of all Scorpene subs came at a premium like all western systems. Its due to this premium of the Western systems that Indian armed forces try not to customise or integrate external stuffss unless they can do it indigeniously. Money spinning cultured Western companies are very much touchy to integrating other sources (in particular Russian) due to the fear of loss of their sales & profit, in addition to prevent their Russian competitors from geting internaltional exposure & benifits.
In the case of Scorpene, its the French who had to do the modification work for their combat management systems and final integration. Russians have nothing to loose by integrating the Klub series of missile, other than more sales for their missiles. Indian Navy wud have loved to have a longer range missile, and other customers like Chile, Malaysia wud have asked for the same once its been done…..which definetely won’t to the the French liking.
Exocet SM39 (50-70Km) is in the class of Harpoon (50Km?) & Uran. They also are comparatively light weight with Uran probably topping the scale and also having a decent warhead (100Kg) and comes cheaper….the only disadvantage as of now for the Uran series is the lack of a sub-launched varant with the land/ship (130Km) & air-launched (230+Km) missiles already available. The Klub series are much heavier and also have greater range. The equivalents of 3M-54/3M-10 (2,400+Km) are the Amrikkan Tomhawk cruise missiles (2,400Km) and they are the ones the Klub has to be compared with. The Exocet MM40 with 180Km is good, but then we already have 290Km Brahmos and can get the 300Km Klub as well. So no point in drooling abt a missile which have just recently reached 180KM. But lets see what happens…….
Any missile India make will have a Russian footprint in it…u guys can deny it to any extent, but that fact will remain. Also, Russia wud never throw a spanner in Indian customisation. If atall, they wud never have put forward the Yakhont technology and rather wud have proposed thejoint development of Klub missiles. But the period in which India got it was during the most tensed period after N-test (when practically all others were up against us) and it would be a shame and ungrateful to deny that the Russian’s gave it as a big stick to keep the devils out. Arms-Tass had years ago stated the Indian contribution as around $200 million….somewhere like $180 million or so in the Joint development. But u see what the ungrateful “indian” ____ now talk abt the system and Russian help…. simply pathetic.
Scorpene will never have Brahmos as its armament in its current form. Now….will the French modify their combat systems to integrate the Klub series and what they do with VLS modification is what we have to wait and watch. Because, there is no point in having a 50-70Km range cruise missile in VLS for our needs when we can get the Klub 3M-54 with 300Km and with some “consulting” we can extent the range to couple of thousand kilometers.
By: Black_Cat - 31st August 2009 at 17:07
INS Vikramaditya (ex-Gorshkov)
INS Vikramaditya contoversies are almost never ending, kept alive by the “experts” who skipped the basics regarding the ship, deal, progress of work and related developments, except for controversial stuffs from the loose media. Let me list some of the basics of the INS Vikramaditya deal (I won’t get surprised if FAQs like the “source” are taken up. Because, thats how ignorant people have been w.r.t the INS Vikramaditya.
INS Vikramaditya deal & major events
1) INS Vikramaditya deal signed in January 2004
2) ~$740 million is for ships modification & ~$940 million (u can correct the figures if necessary)
3) A little over $600 million will go to Sevmash for upgrading the ship. (refer www.sevmash.ru)
—– Deals outside Sevmash
————- 8 + 1 boilers form SDB (all delivered by mid-2006)
————- 4 x 1,500kW Genset from Wartsilla for Electricy Generation
————- Underwater comm and related equipment from Keletron.
————- etc
4) Gorshkov moved to Sevmash dry dock in Dec 2005 after stripping. (www.sevmash.ru)
5) Maximum work to be completed, including major works like new equipment installation, deck extension, propulsion etc etc to be finished before launch.(www.sevmash.ru)
6) Launch planned for November 2006 after completion of the above works. (www.sevmash.ru)
7) Indian delegation visit Sevmash in June 2006. (www.sevmash.ru)
8) Sevmash conveys to the Indian delegation regarding additional work involved. Indian delegation head confirms the delay due to additional work. He says its unfortunate, but hopes to see the work completion in 2 years. i.e Dec 2008 (www.sevmash.ru)
9) Approx $400 million of the $600 million for Sevmash have been transferred for the work by 2006 end.
After June 2006 visit of the Indian delegation, its most likely that the no further funds was made available to Sevmash and hence the work was halted. Its probably after the work on INS Vikramaditya was halted that Sevmash moved the workforce from the carrier to other projects.
——— between June 2006 and mid-2007 there is hardly much news ——
10) mid-2007, some _____ from the Janes pullout what happened in June 2006 and gets success with their “hot” & “scoop” story and screams —–> Gorshkov modification facing major trouble. All others follows with their own theme and speculation.
IN and media pulls out the Russians for moving the workers to other project is, but the reason behind moving workers to other projects is kept-under.
11) Nov 2007, ex-chief scream out on additional work and price increase….. What the hell was he doing when he was in charge??? His successor screams the same in same words (refer the words printed in paper, one wonders who actually wrote for whom or who wrote it for them)
12) Dec 2007-Jan 2008 —- Sevmash “opens up” with new images, Gorshkov with completed ski-jump is flashed…..and draught ridden online community are greeted with an almost formed STOBAR carrier.
More pictures of the carrier arrive by 2008-end. INS Vikramaditya – in most likely service colour – is an eye candy. Truly a Beauty.
13) Nov-Dec 2008 —- even as the media was allout with their planted story regarding Indian Navy ditching the carrier, Indian Naval Chief Sureesh Mehta held a press conference on Mumbai terrorists attacks. Noteable among the press conference was the large banner in the background.
None of the “experts” noticed it nor its importance and the reason why not much photos are available or vedios nor any mention of it anywhere online.
The significance was that —– the background banner had in it a large photo of INS Vikramaditya at Sevmash drydock getting ready for launch. That simple background conveyed how much IMPORTANT INS Vikramaditya was for Indian Navy. But ignorant of this, the “experts” went out on their routine.
This is the first time that I ever saw Indian Navy doing a press conference with a ship thats was still under construction!
14) INS Vikramaditya is launched in Dec 2008, everyone hoping to see a final price negotiation to conclude.
15) 2009…..But, the final price not yet reached. Media as usual went with their on own baseless figures from unnamed Russian sources, where as Russian media quote these Indian media to report the same.
Surpriing is the fact that none of the media or “experts” DARED to use the Right To Information act to get the figures regarding how much was paid to the Russians during the years for Gorshkov modification and rather kept on with their “motivated” reports. Its wonderfully a very “transparent” system!
16) August 2009 …..
Even 3 years after Sevmash conveyed the Indian delegation regarding the additional work and delays, the question of how much more to pay and how much already paid after the Russian demand remains unclear.
Its a DAMN 1095 days thats been wasted due to the incompetants decision makers sitting at the top. And still all the blame is on the Russians, when in 3 years time India could have taken the decision to either keep the ship or let it go and demand the refund!
Among the incompetants in the whole saga, the definite two who should never be cleared for their incompetance in decision making are the Ex-chief and the present Chief. 1095 wasted days since Sevmash first conveyed the delays to the Indian Delegation. What a shame!
The list of charges against the modified ship was plenty, with some of them now having
silenced….
A prominent charge among that was —
1) Simultaneous T/O & landing impaired due to the ships past STOVL status…
All this said….will the people have the courage to speak out against our own incompetancy???
By: Austin - 31st August 2009 at 16:02
1) Why IN’s Scorpene subs are not armed with 300Km range Klub 3M-54?
Integrating Klub would be subject to Russian approval to integrate with non-Russian submarine , which means integrating the missile and associated FC system with sonars/sensors suite of western system, which is a complex and time consuming task , not to mention the russian would ask for a premium for such integration with Scorpene.
The Exocet SM39 is fairly ok for now in anti-ship role , we may see a submarine launched variant of MM40 Block 3 in the future.
2) 3M-54 is the MTRC’ed version of the 2,400+km range 3M-10 strategic cruise missile, which can be “restored” to its “original” form under some “consultancy”.
Not without violating the MTCR , and India is working on its own ~ 1000Km plus cruise missile.
3) Why and who is responsible for not integrating it with Scorpene?
Indian Navy ofcourse , coz of cost and time reasons I would like to think. Not to mention Russian approval.
4) Is the scorpenes weapons room capable of atleast carrying the Klub 3M-54 missiles?
Yes they do carry 53 cm TT , which are klub capable.
Its better to integrate an Indian cruise missile so do not face range issue.
5) Is the Scorpene – in the first place – capable enough to be equipped with much larger & powerful Brahmos/Yakhont cruise missiles???
Brahmos need VLS capability , even for the 2nd line of submarine the IN has asked for AIP capability not VLS capability. Yes any submarine you select will need a hump , not good for conventional submarine.
6) Why the “experts” does not point any finger on the less capable Exocet missiles, initial order of which – probably – costs more than what India paid for getting the ToT of Yakhont missile.
India paid Rs 1,062-crore with M/s MBDA for 36 sea-skimming SM 39 Exocet missiles.
As far as capability goes , according to MBDA
EXOCET has an OTH (Over The Horizon) firing capacity and a range of other operational benefits including :
• low radar signature
• late seeker activation
• sea-skimming at very low altitude
• enhanced target selection and ECCM
• high penetrative power against modern naval air defences.
SM-39 launched from submarine
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August 31, 2009 at 1:19 pm