São Paulo

Fedaykin

The RAFALE made 168 flights from the Foch, including several with internal fuel, two external tanks, four MICA and two MAGIC II, this was before the refitting made by the MB…

And yes, the French instaled a very small ski jump, the Brasilians can do the exact same thing.


Right now, the central “Cat” is rated for twenty tons.
Not only the RAFALE can be safely operated from the São Paulo, it can also have a decent load (at least in the ATA scenario), the biggest problem might not be the take off, but the landing (bring back capability).

Cheers 🙂

In this picutre it looks like the Rafale is taking off WITHOUT it’s afterburner going. I don”t think we will see Rafale operating of Brazil’s carrier. They have to get the carrier in good enough condition to go on deployment 1st beforethey think about operating modern aircraft. Brazil’s navy needs lots of other equipment before they go buying modern fighters. unless they get a cheap deal for the F1’s from france it just won’t happen.

From Defesa.br on Rafale on Sao Paolo.
http://www.defesabr.com/MB/mb_rafale.htm

Machine translation Portugese > English
http://nl.babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_url?doit=done&tt=url&intl=1&fr=bf-home&trurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.defesabr.com%2FMB%2Fmb_rafale.htm&lp=pt_en&btnTrUrl=Vertalen

The three models of the Rafale can be understood by these capacities:

F1 = Air combat;

F2 = F1 + Air-to-ground Attack; e

F3 = F2 + Naval Attack, Recognition and Nuclear Attack.

The Rafale F3 could only be considered as Multi-functional, with aptitudes for Air combat, Air-to-ground Attack, Naval Attack, Recognition and Nuclear Attack.

One knows that the Nuclear NAe Charles de Gaulle will be able to operate a maximum of 40 aircraft Rafale M – F1, F2 and F3.

Essais du Rafale Porte Avions Foch 1994

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQkqE4PxjmA

…As for there being only 9 F1 model Rafaels in French service- this is incorrect, IIRC they were upgraded to F2 standard before heading off to Afghanistan where they proved themselves a decent air to ground machine as well as air to air. Currently the MM fleet is undergoing upgrade to F3 standards.

Ja,

Can you provide any evidence to support that? Everything I’ve found confirms the story in the link I gave, i.e. that the 9 Rafale M F1 have not been upgraded, but have been put in store.

Note this story, for example: it clearly states that AdlA & MN F2s were used for air-ground, but the MN F1s were restricted to air-air & buddy-buddy tanking.

http://www.meretmarine.com/article.cfm?id=108339
9 of the 10 F1 built are being stored. The 10th is being kept by Dassault as a test aircraft. They may be upgraded to F3 in the future. The MN F2s are being upgraded to F3.

BTW, the IAF appears to have given up on the Kaveri engine for now. It’s got tired of jam tomorrow. The Tejas is currently being built with F404s, & the usual interminable negotiations are going on with Snecma & Eurojet about a replacement.

Whats the point of getting these nine older M/F1 when the upgraded Skyhawk will do the job perfectly well?

Better to wait for a new carrier down the line and buy a follow up order of the latest carrier variant of the Rafale.

Will they?
That depends on what the Brasilian Navy thinks of their strategical enviroment. And they dont have to look very far for something capable of making an (highly) upgraded A-4 look like a Sopwith Camel…

http://fav-club.com/galeria/main.php?g2_itemId=6060

http://fav-club.com/galeria/main.php?g2_itemId=5730

http://fav-club.com/galeria/main.php?g2_itemId=5960

Cheers 🙂

As for there being only 9 F1 model Rafaels in French service- this is incorrect, IIRC they were upgraded to F2 standard before heading off to Afghanistan where they proved themselves a decent air to ground machine as well as air to air

air to air against what ? Flying Mullahs ?

No, the Rafale M F1 have been stored pending a decision on upgrading to F3 standard.

Swerve: Point taken about the Skyhawks, still the US did block the RNZAF big wigs from trying to sell them to Brazil even to the point of forbidding them to go to the country to talk about them- New Zealand decided to do a sneaky and hold talks in Wellington with the Diplomatic staff from Brazil there. I think the reason being was that the US as you correctly mentioned, had the F-16 and F/A-18 up for competition in Brazil and this might have swayed judgment on any decision.

As for the Tejas, the Indians are indeed going to develop it and we are seeing (finally) full rate production of the air force model starting to role off the line, though in very limited numbers. There is still trouble with the Kuvari engine but HAL has assured that in time these problems will be sorted. Personally I see a big future for the little Tejas and can only wish them well with it. As for the T45 and naval version of a Mk-120 series hawk, I doubt that would ever happen, sure the T-45C is a decent machine but it lacks any real punch and certainly not enough to be considered a Fleet Defence Fighter.

As for there being only 9 F1 model Rafaels in French service- this is incorrect, IIRC they were upgraded to F2 standard before heading off to Afghanistan where they proved themselves a decent air to ground machine as well as air to air. Currently the MM fleet is undergoing upgrade to F3 standards.

What is on discussion is not a swing role RAFALE getting off the São Paulo, the airframes being looked at are the nine M/F1, as swerve and Adelphi mentioned. 😉

Cheers

Whats the point of getting these nine older M/F1 when the upgraded Skyhawk will do the job perfectly well?

Better to wait for a new carrier down the line and buy a follow up order of the latest carrier variant of the Rafale.

But not in Swing Role with a decent bring back as you point out, why operate two different fast jet types off the Sao Paulo when the upgraded Sky Hawk are more then adequate in both roles. Better to save the money for a few years and allow the air force to get to grips with the Rafale then look at a replacement for the Sao Paulo…then get Rafale M.

Anyway I am dubious about how safe it is to operate the Rafale at high weights off the Sao Paulo, the French did it for testing reasons not for full operations.

What is on discussion is not a swing role RAFALE getting off the São Paulo, the airframes being looked at are the nine M/F1, as swerve and Adelphi mentioned. 😉

Cheers

Fedaykin

The RAFALE made 168 flights from the Foch, including several with internal fuel, two external tanks, four MICA and two MAGIC II, this was before the refitting made by the MB…

And yes, the French instaled a very small ski jump, the Brasilians can do the exact same thing.


Right now, the central “Cat” is rated for twenty tons.
Not only the RAFALE can be safely operated from the São Paulo, it can also have a decent load (at least in the ATA scenario), the biggest problem might not be the take off, but the landing (bring back capability).

Cheers 🙂

But not in Swing Role with a decent bring back as you point out, why operate two different fast jet types off the Sao Paulo when the upgraded Sky Hawk are more then adequate in both roles. Better to save the money for a few years and allow the air force to get to grips with the Rafale then look at a replacement for the Sao Paulo…then get Rafale M.

Anyway I am dubious about how safe it is to operate the Rafale at high weights off the Sao Paulo, the French did it for testing reasons not for full operations.

AFAIK there are 9 Rafale M F1, & they are only capable of air-air, so it’s feasible. There are enough for that role, on one small carrier, & they’d complement the Skyhawks. The MN is reported to have put them into storage, & is only operating the later models, so they could well be for sale if Brazil is interested.

http://secretdefense.blogs.liberation.fr/defense/2008/05/la-marine-place.html

Hi Fedaykin,
We might see Rafale M/F1 aboard São Paulo. It’s probably that they’ll fly together with modernized A-4s.
Rafale can operate only in air-to-air configuration because is too heavy for the A-12. The modernized Skyhawks will be the “strike force”.

Best Regards,
Rodrigo

WE might see Rafale on a new Brazillian carrier in the future but not on the Sao Paulo. Whilst the Rafale was tested on the Foch it is really too heavy to operate well off this carrier with any kind of load. If you look at the video posted by Stonewall you will see the Ski Jump that had to be mounted on the strop catcher to support testing.

Considering the Skyhawk are going through a SLEP with new avionics I see it staying in service for at least another ten years. Brazil is also buying tanker and AEW conversions of the S2 Tracker from America so they clearly have plans for the Sao Paulo to retain much of its current airgroup. Oh and they are replacing the Seaking with Seahawk as well.

The Skyhawk with a Grifo radar, HMS, Python 4 and Derby working with an AEW Tracker Brazil will have a perfectly good budget carrier force. People forget that the Skyhawk in service were also the last to come off the line in the late 70’s.

Fedaykin

The RAFALE made 168 flights from the Foch, including several with internal fuel, two external tanks, four MICA and two MAGIC II, this was before the refitting made by the MB…

And yes, the French instaled a very small ski jump, the Brasilians can do the exact same thing.


Right now, the central “Cat” is rated for twenty tons.
Not only the RAFALE can be safely operated from the São Paulo, it can also have a decent load (at least in the ATA scenario), the biggest problem might not be the take off, but the landing (bring back capability).

Cheers 🙂

WE might see Rafale on a new Brazillian carrier in the future but not on the Sao Paulo. Whilst the Rafale was tested on the Foch it is really too heavy to operate well off this carrier with any kind of load. If you look at the video posted by Stonewall you will see the Ski Jump that had to be mounted on the strop catcher to support testing.

Considering the Skyhawk are going through a SLEP with new avionics I see it staying in service for at least another ten years. Brazil is also buying tanker and AEW conversions of the S2 Tracker from America so they clearly have plans for the Sao Paulo to retain much of its current airgroup. Oh and they are replacing the Seaking with Seahawk as well.

The Skyhawk with a Grifo radar, HMS, Python 4 and Derby working with an AEW Tracker Brazil will have a perfectly good budget carrier force. People forget that the Skyhawk in service were also the last to come off the line in the late 70’s.

Well, it seems logical. They should be relatively cheap, too, though the price would go up if upgraded to the standard of the new AF ones.

Brazilian Foruns already give 99,99999999999999999999999% certainty , Rafale M. F1 to the Navy 😎

What I would like to know is, what will the next light strike plane be for carriers of conventional use? The US and UK are moving towards use of the STOVL F-35B but what about Brazil and France? What if the UK decided to go back to CTOL carriers? What about China and India who are using the Russian system and what of Russia they have recently announced that they want to build more carriers too.

There isn’t one, unless India actually gets the naval Tejas operational & starts selling it – and that would need modification for catapult launch. Nobody is willing to pay for it. The Russians & Chinese don’t seem to be interested, preferring big carriers with big aircraft. Nobody else wants to pay for developing one.

A strike version of the T-45, or a T-45ised Hawk T2, could be a light strike aircraft, but the niche is filled by upgraded A-4s at lower price for the lifetime of the last light catapult-equipped carrier. Gripen could be navalised, but it would cost a lot for a small number of aircraft, & there’s no carrier which needs it.

I read above that someone was talking about the Kahu’s, well those are out! The US needs to apporve the sale of the planes and since these planes have F-16 equipment on board, it’s doubtful that the US will allow the Brazilians or Argentinians to have them because the countries don’t see eye to eye on the political field.

The USA has just tried quite hard to sell Brazil F-18E & F-16E (the former was shortlisted for the FX-2, & the latter rejected early on), & the Argentinean A-4AR Fightinghawk already has F-16 equipment aboard, e.g. an APG-66 radar – like the Kahus. If the USA is willing to sell 21st century equipment on a 1990s fighter, why would it block the sale of much older aircraft with 1980s equipment?

Brazil just ordered Rafales for the air force …

and M1s already retired from French Navy are very likely to go to the Brazilian Navy also

forget the A-4s 😎

RAFALE in the Foch (now the São Paulo)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Drus7ANMpcY&feature=player_embedded

Brazil just ordered Rafales for the air force …