£35 Billion Game

Im not a big fan of the MEKO route tbh i would rather have better warships. Im not saying they are crap ships but they dont ring well with me. That should be a very good fleet if they are all from the one Vendor, cheap and with little support issues.

I agree, I dont think the RKN would be one for getting into a fight as they would get shafted. I would concentrate on persistant surveillance and minor conflict roles if something bigger kicks off i would stay out of it and protect my Island nation hence the number of subs. With 18 you could have 6 constant patrols at least, you could maybe surge some more when needed such as when an LPH deploys.

My idea so far:

2x FNS Mistral = £265mln each = £530mln total
32x VT 100M C3 design = £120mln each = £3,840mln total
18x HDW 212A = £300mln each = £5,400mln total
8x improved Absalon = £210mln each = £1,680
12x Aegir 18R = £160mln each = £1,920 mln

Total so far = £13,370.

Note i am lacking choppers etc but i’ll work that out at some point. My improved Absalons include a TAS, bow sonar, Mk.41 VLS. Absalon as is costs £160mln roughly

Well thats me.

EDIT: Anyone any idea how much FLynx will cost? or how much for a current HMA.8, Whats the cost of an ASW Merlin if bought now aka after R&D i think the RN one’s were over £40mln each including R&D.
I might go for Seahawks and Black Hawks as they are extremely cheap.

EH101
IOC: 2000
Production: 63
Unitary Cost: USD$27 million (BS thats £16mln a copy for a Merlin HC.3)

I like the MEKO route…

4x MHD200
8X F125
12x MEKO CSL
16x MEKO Fusion
8x U214

As this in not a nation looking to start a fight, this gives a good balance of support for UN missions but defending its own waters. Staying with one company will also ease logistics and maintenance.

—–JT—–

Still no more posts up on this thread, 🙁 I liked reading what people had to say.

If i had to build a Navy for “The Kingdom of Kumar” it would mainly consist of long range opv’s such as the Khareef class derivative proposed for the RN C3. These vessels with their huge range would be able to handle the anti-piracy work as well as take aboard modules for mine warfare.

I would also operate quite a few SSK’s maybe 18 to provide sea denial, Modern ones could even take down Carriers as proven many times in training.

Any large vessels such as amphibs would be pointless, your not going to invade anyone. But i would have 2 LPH’s a bit like HMS Ocean to carry Helo’s for humanitarian or minor conflict work, these would also be able to deploy the commando force.

I would have a very small force of frigates maybe Absalon with an improved AAW and ASW weaponry suite. Maybe with an I-mast fitted if this could do the job.

I would have an Auxiliary fleet made up of a few large AOR’s Aegir 18R and other smaller tankers to support any missions. The Horn of Africa is roughly 1500nm away and malaysia 3000nm so the OPV’s could easily self deploy and stop somewhere for fuel or if not be accompanied by a tanker.

I just posted this for the hell of it as there has been no posts for a while. You may notice i have not mentioned numbers of vessels apart from subs. This would depend on what i commitments i would need to make. One thing i see if people choosing vast ranges of equipment with little thought for commonality or possible export problems. Things like F-35 your up a gum tree. Yes i do appreciate that this is for fun.

Hi

In march I and my friends, on italian forum, made the same game with a cost cap of 24 milions of € for build a fleet. For the game we made a small, italian oriented of course 😀 , price guide, ie:

Hull cost:
OPV up to 100m: 80 milions
FRIGATE 100-110 m : 100 milions
FRIGATE 110-120 m : 120 milions
FRIGATE 120-130 m : 140 milions
FRIGATE 130-140 m : 175 milions
Destroyer – FRIGATE 140-150 m : 200 milions
Destroyer 150-160 m: 240 milions
Destroyer 160-180 m: 275 milions
Cruiser 180-200m: 300 milions
Cruiser 200m: 600 milioni, nucleare

LSD BAY type: 160 milions
Santi LPD (enlarge fly deck and elevator for NH-90): 140 milions or 300 (civil/military standard)
LHD 15.000 ton: 250 milions (civil) or 500 milions (military) (the Fincantieri project)
LPD Galicia Type: 200 milions
LPD De Witt Type: 240 milions
LHD BPE type, civil standard 500 milions
LHA BPE type, military standard (more aircraft oriented) 800 milions
+ 25 milions for each LCAC
(amphibious ship are full optional like as original version)

PA by 30.000 tons: 1.5 bilions
PA by 40.000* tons: 1,9 bilions
PA by 50.000* tons: 2,4 bilions
PA by 60.000* tons: 3,0 bilions
*Nuclear + 500 milions,CATOBAR + 500 milions

Aircraft: 100 milions each (F-35C, Rafale) , 120 milions each (F-35B). HEW: 80 milions, AEW: 200 milions

Helicopter:
nh90 utility: 30 milions
aw101 utility: 45 milions
+ 5 milions for special ops (ASW/ASuW, ASH,…)

SSBN: 2 bilions without ICBM**
** 1 ICBM = 100 milions each

SSN of 100 m: 900 milions***
SSK 50 m = 250 milions, max 12***
SSK 56 m = 300 milions, max 16***
SSK 65 m = 400 milions, max 20***
SSK 70 m = 450 milions, max 24***
*** + 20 milions for a single cruise by VLS/tt + 4 milions torpedo/ SubSM each

MHC Gaeta type:120 milions full optional
MHC oceanic: 160 milions full optional

———————————————————————————-

EMPAR: 25 milions, + 10 milions for 4 fixed faces
RAN40L 30 milions
S1850 40 milions
SPY1D 45 milions
SPY1F 25 milions
KRONOS 10 milions (ie EMPAR low cost because it has 1/3 of EMPAR array)
——————————————————
PAAMS 100 milions with LR radar
SAAM ESD 75 milions with LR radar LR, 80 without
SAAM IT 50 milions
AEGIS 100 milions + 4 milions for each SPG-62 radar
System for OPV without missile: 10 milions
System for OPV with missile: 25 milions
hull SONAR for ASW: 25 milions
antimine SONAR, no hunt, 15 milions
VDS 30 milions
——————————————-
MODULE (the other is paid apart, ie missile, torpedoes, guns,…)
ASW = 50 milions (VDS + hull sonar)
MHW = 80 milioni (all inclusive)
SF = 20 milioni (4 RHIB + C2 capacity)
ASuW = 5 milioni (predisposition necessary for SSM)
——————————————

Missile:

2 milions Aster 30 / SM2
2,5 milions per SM-6
1 milions Aster 15 / ESSM – x 1 ESSM /CAAM (4 milions if quadpack)
5 milions SM3 / Aster ABM + 40 milions for CMS/radar upgrade
2,5 Teseo / Exocet / Harpoon
3 milions MILAS/ASROC
4 milions Brahmos
Scalp/TacTom 15 milions
torpedoes (MU-90): 1 milions
—————————————

Guns

155mm = 40 milions****
127mm = 20 milions****
76mm = 5 milions****
****+ 3, 2 or 1 milions for guided ammo (ie Vulcano (127,155), DART/Strales(76) or AGS guided ammo (155))
57 mm = 0,5 milions
25-30 mm remote (Marlin WS, Phalanx, Rheinmental 27mm): 2,5 milions
25-30 servo – (KBA) – 1,5 milions
12,7 remote 1,5 milions

When I adapted my fleet to 21 bilions I post it

I think the USA would flatly refuse to allow any local forces anywhere near their base (they may want to use it against Kumar one day, e.g. if its government is overthrown by one openly hostile to the USA), & AFAIK, the agreement between the USA & UK allows the USA to insist on sole use.

As for a base elsewhere in BIOT – how much oil would Kumar be willing to give the UK (BTW – we don’t import much from that part of the world at the moment – we’d probably sell it straight on – may as well give us cash) for access to an undeveloped island, far enough away from Diego Garcia not to breach our deal with the USA? How much would the UK want to compensate for winding up the USA & India by granting said access? Would a British government survive the inevitable scandal back home? Is there even a suitable island? Looking at a map, I don’t think there is.

No, I think the whole idea is a non-starter. Stick to the Seychelles, maybe Mauritius, if you want to extend your reach a little.

Its worth the try (like Kummar cares if the UK government falls!) and if it doesn’t work i’ll get the backing of the African Union to kick the frogs off of Reunion! 😀 Spins in chair stroking white cat….

The Canterbury’s main issues are that it is too small, the latest versions of AST have a well and are much longer and heavier, removing the prop-sea state 6 issue. The Kiwis went for the cheapest option and got what they paid for, a car ferry with a gun. The AST for Kummar is more devloped version, for instance it has three heli-spots on its flight deck compared to one on the Herald of FreeCanterbury.

In my plan they enter service between 2012-2022, so all sorts of design changes are possible.

To quote Merwede (jeez i better get comission)-

Amphibious capabilities: MERWEDE SHIPYARD Naval Division can create different solutions for the ship to shore transfer of heavy rolling equipment. Depending on the envisaged mission and the anticipated conditions during operation, the Client can opt for a cost-effective amphibious solution without a well dock with a ramp to ramp marriage system, or for a solution with a well dock.

… She is based off an Isle of Man ferry isn’t she?

Yes. Ben My Chree.

Apparently Merwede offer a version with a dock, but that’s a paper project, & after the problems with Canterbury I’m wary of it. I think that if I wanted the cheapest amphibious ship I could get (the only reason for buying a ferry-derived ship like Canterbury that I can see – she was very cheap) I’d buy Korean. The Indonesian (Korean-designed, first two Korean0built) Makasar-class look like a much better bet.

Havent had a chance to completely read through that report i found on gov.nz yet, will read it in the morning. But if what wiki is correct, then her props are out of the war in sea state 6 and there may be fatigue problems with her landing craft davits. Doesn’t sound good. She is based off an Isle of Man ferry isn’t she?

I Don’t like your amphibious ship, its an enlarged Canterbury and the RNZN are having problems with her. The design you outline is an RO-RO and does not have a well deck, meaning you can only carry landing craft on davits, and anything that cannot be carried by embarked helicopters needs a port to unload.

Apparently Merwede offer a version with a dock, but that’s a paper project, & after the problems with Canterbury I’m wary of it. I think that if I wanted the cheapest amphibious ship I could get (the only reason for buying a ferry-derived ship like Canterbury that I can see – she was very cheap) I’d buy Korean. The Indonesian (Korean-designed, first two Korean0built) Makasar-class look like a much better bet.

As for BIOT an oil deal with the UK would swing it. The yanks use the base and they would be very happy to have a local watchman filling in for them. Each base would only be a refueling pier, some accomodation and a hardstanding for 4-6 MPA at sutible airfield.

I think the USA would flatly refuse to allow any local forces anywhere near their base (they may want to use it against Kumar one day, e.g. if its government is overthrown by one openly hostile to the USA), & AFAIK, the agreement between the USA & UK allows the USA to insist on sole use.

As for a base elsewhere in BIOT – how much oil would Kumar be willing to give the UK (BTW – we don’t import much from that part of the world at the moment – we’d probably sell it straight on – may as well give us cash) for access to an undeveloped island, far enough away from Diego Garcia not to breach our deal with the USA? How much would the UK want to compensate for winding up the USA & India by granting said access? Would a British government survive the inevitable scandal back home? Is there even a suitable island? Looking at a map, I don’t think there is.

No, I think the whole idea is a non-starter. Stick to the Seychelles, maybe Mauritius, if you want to extend your reach a little.

I Don’t like your amphibious ship, its an enlarged Canterbury and the RNZN are having problems with her. The design you outline is an RO-RO and does not have a well deck, meaning you can only carry landing craft on davits, and anything that cannot be carried by embarked helicopters needs a port to unload.

HMNZS Canterbury Safety Report

Interesting. I like the idea of co-operation with South Africa. They want your oil, you want their technology & industry. you both want peaceful seas & lack of interference from outside.

I’m unsure about the modified Valour AAW ships. I’d worry about topweight, trying to fit out a ship that size with area defence weapons & appropriate sensors. And can you clarify exactly what Merwede amphibious transport design you mean?

Also, have you considered a more capable alternative to the Clyde OPV? Not more capable for long endurance oceanic patrol (as far as I can see it’s hard to better at that), but with a hangar, like the Spanish BAM (85 mn euros apiece).

This puppy here-

http://www.merwede.com/index.php?id=2604&no_cache=1&tx_photogals_elementid=2929&tx_photogals_image=0

Would not be married to the Clyde. I just figured that at the early stage of fleet development I would keep it simple. The embarked type would be the Colibri in the early years so only realy for fair weather and training.

AAW Valour. Might be a bit heavy on top. It could be a slightly bigger hull. I just wanted to maintain as much commonality as possible and keep my supply footprint small. I was reckoning on using a naval “R-Darter ER” developed in SA with the development money I have thrown their way.

Don’t see that happening, especially the second one. 😉

Funny thing is, any build up on the eastern edge of Africa would probably result in the build up of the IN and RAN since both would see Kumar as a threat, especially the RAN who base half their fleet in the pacific and half in the Indian Ocean.

Well thats their look out! 😀

As for BIOT an oil deal with the UK would swing it. The yanks use the base and they would be very happy to have a local watchman filling in for them. Each base would only be a refueling pier, some accomodation and a hardstanding for 4-6 MPA at sutible airfield.

In case anyone is confused that makes my KN order of battle by 2030-

6 Modified Valour AAW Frigate
12 Valour Class (Meko200SAN) FFH
12 Type209/1400
12 Clyde OPV
3 Merwede Amphibious Transport Ships
3 Aegir 18R replenishment Ships
1 Light Support Ship
Costal and riverine Sqn

3 Sqn 54 Lynx Wildcat
2 Sqn 36 Merlin UT
2 Sqn 24 P8K Poseidon MPA
1 Sqn 12 Dash8MPA
1 Sqn 18 Colibri

Marine Brigade- 3 bns + Artillery, Engineer and Light Armour Rgt.

As well as bases in Seychelles an BIOT.

Interesting. I like the idea of co-operation with South Africa. They want your oil, you want their technology & industry. you both want peaceful seas & lack of interference from outside.

I’m unsure about the modified Valour AAW ships. I’d worry about topweight, trying to fit out a ship that size with area defence weapons & appropriate sensors. And can you clarify exactly what Merwede amphibious transport design you mean?

Also, have you considered a more capable alternative to the Clyde OPV? Not more capable for long endurance oceanic patrol (as far as I can see it’s hard to better at that), but with a hangar, like the Spanish BAM (85 mn euros apiece).

As well as bases in Seychelles an BIOT.

Don’t see that happening, especially the second one. 😉

Funny thing is, any build up on the eastern edge of Africa would probably result in the build up of the IN and RAN since both would see Kumar as a threat, especially the RAN who base half their fleet in the pacific and half in the Indian Ocean.

In case anyone is confused that makes my KN order of battle by 2030-

6 Modified Valour AAW Frigate
12 Valour Class (Meko200SAN) FFH
12 Type209/1400
12 Clyde OPV
3 Merwede Amphibious Transport Ships
3 Aegir 18R replenishment Ships
1 Light Support Ship
Costal and riverine Sqn

3 Sqn 54 Lynx Wildcat
2 Sqn 36 Merlin UT
2 Sqn 24 P8K Poseidon MPA
1 Sqn 12 Dash8MPA
1 Sqn 18 Colibri

Marine Brigade- 3 bns + Artillery, Engineer and Light Armour Rgt.

As well as bases in Seychelles an BIOT.

Ok, here goes, I took up your £18 Billion challenge rather than 35. My bid goes for a phased approach in order to build up capability and experience and spread the costs out. I figure there is no way Kummar Navy (KN) could just buy a capable force and pluck the men to operate it out of a hat…

Phase 1
5 year programme Approximate Cost – £1Billion + Oil deals (2009-2014)

12 Clyde Class OPV (£360mil)
1 Support Ship – converted from an oil industry support ship (£100Mil)
1 Sqn 18 EC120 Colibri (£18mil)
1 Sqn 12 Dash8 MPA (£360mil)
1 Sqn of mixed costal and riverine patrol craft approx 30 vessels (£100 mil)
Raising of Bn of Marines to form core of future Marine Brigade (set aside £25 mil for barracks, training ground, weapons etc etc)
Naval Training Facility with training vessels (set aside £100Mil)

This should –
A) Form the basis of a solid training capability
B) Secure Kummar’s newly found oil wealth
C) Help close the Mozambique Channel to refugee and people smugglers as Kummar’s new found wealth will make it a mecca for illegal immigration.
D) Allow a small contribution to piracy patrols to the north.

Would also send officers and sailors to train and exchange with USN, RN, SAN, RSN, IN, RAN etc in exchange for oil.

Phase 2
10 year programme Approximate Cost – £ 9 Billion (2012-2022)

12 Valour Class (Meko200SAN) FFH (£3Billion)
6 Type209/1400 (£360mill)
3 Merwede Amphibious Transport Ships (£250million)
3 Aegir 18R replenishment Ships (£2Billion)
2 Sqn 36 Lynx Wildcat (£720Mil)
1 Sqn 18 Merlin UT (£500Mil)
12 P8K Poseidon MPA (£1.5 Billion)
Creation of second marine Bn and supporting engineer and artillery units. (£500Mil)

Chose the Valour/Meko Frigate for commonality with Kummar’s nearest ally South Africa, which would allow easy exchange, ops, engineering support etc, its is also very capable of upgrade in my latter phase 3. Chose Merwede AST as perfect for the small interventions/peacekeeping/piracy work the KN will now start to concentrate on along the East Coast of Africa. Went for Type209/1400 for the same reasons of commonality with SAN as the MEKO.

Worth pointing out that at this point the KN would be the most powerful navy in Africa and the third most powerful in the Indian Ocean, behind the IN and RAN.

Phase 3
15 year programme Approximate cost – £8 Billion (2015-2030)

Building of Port and Airfield facilities in Seychelles and BIOT – would extend reach of Subs and MPA across Indian Ocean. (£1Billion + oil deals with Seychelles and UK)

Investment in South African Missile development (£1Billion) in order to supply missiles for 6 AAW “modified Valour Class” and Land Attack Missile for Frigate update. (See below.)

Valour Class Upgrade (£1 Billion) in conjunction with SAN to include.
*AUV for mine warfare.
*Upgraded Umkhonto SAM
*Land Attack Missile
*Larger caliber gun
*Rototary UAV
*Radar and sonars.

6 Modified Valour class Area AAW Frigates with APAR. (£2Billion)
6 Type209A/1400 (£360 Mil)
1 Sqn 12 P8K Poseidon MPA (£1.5 Billion)
1 Sqn 18 Merlin UT (£500Mil)
1 sqn 18 LynxWildcat (for marines) (£360mil)
Raising of third Marine BN and the addition of a light armoured regiment. (£500mil)

For the Danish frigates, i was under the impression that they were basically an Absalon minus the vehicle deck.

Same hull, but as you say, minus the vehicle deck, i.e. less weight & volume. Different power plant, higher speed, more sensors, more weapons.

@ swerve:
Does it have to be Hyuga itself? Could you basically use the same concept, possibly based on a heavily modernised Invincible (crew saving etc) and get it built in Korea?

Yes, you could get a new design built to the same concept, & the Koreans would probably be happy to oblige. There’d be design & development cost, of course.

Ed, you might want to check some prices because I think you went way over budget.

For the Danish frigates, i was under the impression that they were basically an Absalon minus the vehicle deck.

Regarding the Collins place, apparrently a lot of the build problems were a result of some swedish errors, sine they basically scaled up Gotland IIRC and it didn’t quite work right. Problems had to be sorted out with US aid. The requirements for the original combat system were beyond the possible with the available technology for the time, which caused all sorts of problems, they now have the combat system used in Virginia.

For Modified ANZAC or something similar, it has to be quite a bit larger then ANZAC, T23 size minimum, T22 size would be better (they are having massive topweight problems from what i’ve read on other forums). Stanflex on a frigate? Why? :confused:

The Danish Iver Huitsfeldt is based on the Absalon hull, but is actually pretty different. It has double the power, and a much higher speed; it has the same basic radar suite as the De Zeven Provincien (hence pretty decent AAW capability). The crucial point is the cost – the Iver Huitsfeldt costs a fair bit less than equivalents, somewhere around 400m Euros, so even with a few extra VLS cells and some design mods, shouldn’t break the £500m mark. As such, even a dozen of them should be around the £6bn mark.

As for the smaller ships, the idea of using the Standard Flex design methodology is more for ease of equipping. The Danes have really done a bloody good job with naval construction, arguably out-Mekoing the Meko (the original benchmark for adaptable warship design). The idea was simply to do a ship somewhere around the C-2 or C-3 mark, closer to the well-armed C-3 proposals discussed previously. I would certainly aim to cap costs around the £200-250m mark, so again, even a dozen shouldn’t be more than around £2-3bn.

The three Juan Carlos, even with CIWS and radars added shouldn’t be more than around £500m, so ~ £1.5bn.

In terms of submarines, the Collins type would be the upper end of options, and I would happily opt for an alternative, e.g. Scorpene or Type 212/214. The costs in the Collins class blew out in large part because it was an unfortunate mix of bespoke and off the shelf, trying to enlarge a modest size coastal sub into a mini-SSN (minus the reactor). As such, there were problems all over the place – something which hopefully will be avoided with Collins II. With regards to this scenario, the subs would be off the shelf, with as few changes as possible, e.g. using a different torpedo, integrating IDAS and AUVs. The Scorpene, 212 or 214 seem to be around the £300-400m mark, so six should be around the £2-2.5bn mark.

The LSDs, AORs and RoRos should average out at less than £200m each (the LSDs a little more, but not massively so given the Enforcer’s pricing). As such, six LSDs, three cheap-ish AORs and three RoRos should come to around £2.5bn max.

Overall, that comes to ~£15.5bn at the upper ranges of those prices.

For the aircraft, obviously these push the prices up a fair bit, however I wouldn’t count the Marine airpower in the total, as nobody else has accounted for these either!

The 50 or so F-35s should come in somewhere around the £3-4bn mark, and even the total of around 110 EH-101s should be ~£4bn. As for the P-3 Orions, these would, by definition, be second hand, merely overhauled and shouldn’t break the £1bn mark – heck, if they did, they would be pretty poor value! Furthermore, since many other posters have left this role with their Air Force, this figure is somewhat unnecessary.

So, counting all the Fleet Air Arm, that comes to something like £7-8bn, so combined with the shipping, it’s a total of £23.5-24.5bn. Okay, this does break the revised figure of £18bn allowed, but is nowhere near the £35bn mark originally mooted. The figures could also be massaged down a fair bit, e.g. buying straight off the shelf (e.g. you could probably shave over a billion off the surface combattants, a few hundred million here and there on the LHDs, LSDs, AORs and RoRos, and probably a couple of billion off the helo budget.

So, not necessarily way over budget!

Ed, you might want to check some prices because I think you went way over budget.

For the Danish frigates, i was under the impression that they were basically an Absalon minus the vehicle deck.

Regarding the Collins place, apparrently a lot of the build problems were a result of some swedish errors, sine they basically scaled up Gotland IIRC and it didn’t quite work right. Problems had to be sorted out with US aid. The requirements for the original combat system were beyond the possible with the available technology for the time, which caused all sorts of problems, they now have the combat system used in Virginia.

For Modified ANZAC or something similar, it has to be quite a bit larger then ANZAC, T23 size minimum, T22 size would be better (they are having massive topweight problems from what i’ve read on other forums). Stanflex on a frigate? Why? :confused:

@ swerve:
Does it have to be Hyuga itself? Could you basically use the same concept, possibly based on a heavily modernised Invincible (crew saving etc) and get it built in Korea?