Future AEW platform

Cheers

Whilst I fully understand that the V-22 is expensive, it does offer unique capabilities.

Can anyone provide a comparison on speed, range payload for the V-22, Merlin, chinook and C-27J Spartan, and also information on typical in theatre loads? I know the C-130 exceeds all of the above but could a V-22 carry out some of it’s in theatre roles? For example supplying forward deployed troops directly from a main base rather than moving stores/personel forward on a C-130 then to the troops via Merlin/chinook.

I am just trying to work out if a V-22 buy could actually kill many more birds with one stone and offer greater operational flexibility if purchased for both the RN and RAF?

Finally how expensive would it be to develope a presurized V-22. This would remove many limitations and increase range etc?

The V22 can carry a slightly larger payload then the Merlin at faster speed about a hundred nautical miles further, but costs roughly three times as much as a Merlin (and as I said, you can almost buy a C130J for how much they cost)

The chinook carries more than either and can carry it further, costs a bit more then a Merlin and nowhere near as much as a V-22, it also has a larger combat radius then the Osprey.

If you want the numbers, have a look at the following links.

AW101: http://www.deagel.com/Tactical-Support-Helicopters/EH101_a000461003.aspx

CH-47F: http://www.deagel.com/Tactical-Support-Helicopters/CH-47F-Chinook_a000504003.aspx

V-22: http://www.deagel.com/Military-Transport-Aircraft/MV-22B-Osprey_a000522001.aspx

C27J: http://www.deagel.com/Military-Transport-Aircraft/C-27J-Spartan_a000523001.aspx

C130J: http://www.deagel.com/Military-Transport-Aircraft/C-130J-Super-Hercules_a000526004.aspx

Whilst I fully understand that the V-22 is expensive, it does offer unique capabilities.

Can anyone provide a comparison on speed, range payload for the V-22, Merlin, chinook and C-27J Spartan, and also information on typical in theatre loads? I know the C-130 exceeds all of the above but could a V-22 carry out some of it’s in theatre roles? For example supplying forward deployed troops directly from a main base rather than moving stores/personel forward on a C-130 then to the troops via Merlin/chinook.

I am just trying to work out if a V-22 buy could actually kill many more birds with one stone and offer greater operational flexibility if purchased for both the RN and RAF?

Finally how expensive would it be to develope a presurized V-22. This would remove many limitations and increase range etc?

The BA609 is interesting. Its payload is 2.5 tonnes but the fuselage is only 5 feet across. The big issue might be that I don’t think it folds. Its 60 feet across so would fit on the CVF elevator which was designed to take two F35 side by side (about 70 feet) but it would occupy a lot of hanger space without a fold. Does anyone know it it has a cross shaft like the V-22 so that both rotors continue to turn if an engine fails ? Its range may not quite be high enough either for COD or AEW work at 750 miles. However, future versions might do the job.

The V-22 is a very expensive Aircraft (almost as much as a C130J), its not pressurized and its range isn’t all that much higher then that of the Merlin.

The BA609 if pressurized may be a much better (and cheaper) option (wiki lists price as “over $10 million”) for both COD and AEW. Not sure if the BA206 has the carrying capacity though.

Wonder if the BA206 could be scaled up to provide a fast long range sea king replacement, preferrably cheaper then the V-22. 😉

Given the need for AEW, COD on the CVFs and a replacement for the Sea Kings in the Transport role I think or at least hope the MoD looks again at the V-22. COD is extremely valuable for Carriers, though the last UK one was a variant of the Gannet back in the 70s. Given the current design of the CVFs a V-22 variant is the only real option for this role. As has also ben stated the V-22 would nicely fill the AEW role and if operated with a High Altitude UAV would cover most requirements. The V-22 would make an excellent replacement for the Sea King as well so in total you would be looking at around 12 AEW/COD/Tanker? variants (As one one Carrier will be at sea at one time) and between 18 and 24 Transport variants.

Now we all know the V-22 in expensive but it provides a much high capability than conventional Helicopters. Like with the C-17 we would be able to tap into the US supply system and most training could be done in the US.

Stretching things a mini gunship variant like that proposed for the Spartan could be developed in time, providing COIN fire support that might interest the US Spec-Ops community as well as the marines.

That was a feature of the E-1 Tracer’s radome, and is a feature of E-2C Hawkeye’s radome.

They were designed to produce enough lift so that the radome weight-& lift effects were basically balanced out.

Yes, but they don’t have TRMs arranged all over them. That was my point – the proposed arrangement of the TRMs.

That was a feature of the E-1 Tracer’s radome, and is a feature of E-2C Hawkeye’s radome.

They were designed to produce enough lift so that the radome weight-& lift effects were basically balanced out.

One quick thought before finishing for the day is back to the AEW platform. With new radars for mounting on an AEW plane could it not be designed so that it provides considerable lift. Just thinking that with thousands of modules you could have them arranged in a lifting shape and mount them on top of the fuselage. This could act like a third wing.
Any thoughts anyone?

I think you need to consider the shape of a lifting body, & where the TRMs would be pointing. I don’t think they’d be pointing in the ideal direction.

One quick thought before finishing for the day is back to the AEW platform. With new radars for mounting on an AEW plane could it not be designed so that it provides considerable lift. Just thinking that with thousands of modules you could have them arranged in a lifting shape and mount them on top of the fuselage. This could act like a third wing.
Any thoughts anyone?

There are two problems with that mate:

1. BAE are loosing out to the megacorp of Europe “EADS”, even now they admit that EADS is basically driving the aerospace business today.

2. Britain doesn’t want to be like the US, they want the capabilities but retain a different function as opposed to that of the US. Personally I feel that Britain should just stop being silly and join the EU that way they are assured of economic survival! BAE and Westland won’t die under the EADS umbrella, Casa hasn’t nor has any of the other major european aerospace firms.

Swerve answered you pretty well for the most part. I’ll just pick up on that one bold part.

Britain IS part of the EU, despite the fact the majority of the population are against it. There are plenty of legitimate reasons for us to stay clear of them. In recent years those reasons have only been increasing. I’m trying not to go on too much of a rant here, but it isn’t at all silly. And certainly won’t ensure economic survival.

Lastly, it is important to note that several areas of EADS have been struggling significantly recently and require propping up. It is also frequently interfered with by certain governments, notably France who own part of the company. So it is not necessarily the all powerful defence company that we want.

There are two problems with that mate:

1. BAE are loosing out to the megacorp of Europe “EADS”, even now they admit that EADS is basically driving the aerospace business today.

2. Britain doesn’t want to be like the US, they want the capabilities but retain a different function as opposed to that of the US. Personally I feel that Britain should just stop being silly and join the EU that way they are assured of economic survival! BAE and Westland won’t die under the EADS umbrella, Casa hasn’t nor has any of the other major european aerospace firms.

Sorry, mate, but it isn’t like that.

Firstly, EADS is the largest in aerospace, but not in all military systems – e.g. Thales & Selex are bigger in radars. As already said, Westland is part of Finmeccanica (which also owns Selex) & its Agusta-Westland subsidiary is thriving. I think it’s now the second biggest helicopter builder in the world, after Eurocopter.

BAe is also doing very well, in some cases in areas EADS isn’t even involved in, but also competing vigorously with EADS, e.g. in UAVs, where it’s probably leading the pack in Europe – and Finmeccanica is also doing well in UAVs.

Dassault is looking marginal, but by linking up with Thales (competing with Selex in radars, where EADS is an also ran) it may have secured its future. SAAB is a niche player, working with BAe & Finmeccanica in different areas. It’s more likely to link up with one of them than EADS.

MBDA is interesting. It’s by far the biggest missile producer in Europe, & it’s owned jointly by EADS (37.5%), BAe (37.5%) & Finmeccanica (25%).

Last I heard, EADS had ca 120000 workers, Finmeccanica 74000, & BAe ca 100000. Doesn’t look like total domination to me.

There are two problems with that mate:

1. BAE are loosing out to the megacorp of Europe “EADS”, even now they admit that EADS is basically driving the aerospace business today.

2. Britain doesn’t want to be like the US, they want the capabilities but retain a different function as opposed to that of the US. Personally I feel that Britain should just stop being silly and join the EU that way they are assured of economic survival! BAE and Westland won’t die under the EADS umbrella, Casa hasn’t nor has any of the other major european aerospace firms.

Westland is already part of Finmeccanica and seems to be doing just fine and BAE is now one of the largest Defence Companies in the world and a look at its UAV programme suggests it is also not dying.

Join the EU:confused:

We should just go with a new build aircraft so that BAe keep their services open and we get something perfect for the navy. Or we just go to Nuclear carriers if we want to be like the yankees.

There are two problems with that mate:

1. BAE are loosing out to the megacorp of Europe “EADS”, even now they admit that EADS is basically driving the aerospace business today.

2. Britain doesn’t want to be like the US, they want the capabilities but retain a different function as opposed to that of the US. Personally I feel that Britain should just stop being silly and join the EU that way they are assured of economic survival! BAE and Westland won’t die under the EADS umbrella, Casa hasn’t nor has any of the other major european aerospace firms.

We should just go with a new build aircraft so that BAe keep their services open and we get something perfect for the navy. Or we just go to Nuclear carriers if we want to be like the yankees.

Swerve: Look forward to seeing those pics mate. As for the radar, not sure- there was a proposal at one stage to fit the Erieye radar to it’s back like the P-99A has, and then this radar version came along which was to be houses in a retracting turret under the fuselage (taking up the torp bay I’d imagine).

Didn’t the Gannets and later the Shackleton’s use the radars off retired Skyraider AEW’s?

Same basic radar (AN/APS-20) but much upgraded by the time it flew in the Shacks. Story goes the operators liked it as much as the tiffs hated it!.

Didn’t the Gannets and later the Shackleton’s use the radars off retired Skyraider AEW’s?

There’s a Gannet parked outside a couple of miles from here, at Dinton Pastures country park. I have to take some pictures of it.

What radar will the Brazilians fit to their Trackers? The original proposal dates back to 2001 (that’s when it was reported). I expect it’s been revised by now.