New Class of Carrier for Indian Navy?

I’ve been puzzled by recent reports that Graythorp is the largest drydock in the world, as I’ve always thought H&W’s ship repair dock held that honour. Hard facts about dimensions and infrastructure are hard to get on the net though:(

If you look at the pictures, it’s clear that Graythorp is much bigger – 10 hectares, equivalent to 100×1000 metres. The gate is 122 metres. It’s a very different sort of dock, though: it’s not ship-shaped. It’s great for breaking up several ships at once (how it’s now used), but not so good for building a single large ship. I don’t know what it was originally built for, but it has been used for building offshore rigs.

http://www.ableuk.com/portfacilities-seaton.htm

Actually a Russian firm is helping with the Aircraft operation and deck. While Fincantieri is helping with propulsion system and design.

Harriers got updated with Elta 2032s and Derby BVRAAMs :).

The scond IAC being 60000+ tons is bull****, because the Cochin Shipyard’s dry dock cannot house a ship that large, it will need a bigger dry dock for that. Unlikely for the time being.

I think Navy will have to shell out its own funds to upgrade the present dock or build a new one because financial crisis n recession means it won’t be commercially feasible for them. there is another option- check out private shipyards, Pipavav is said to be a very large shipyard under construction. its dry dock is of dimensions 661 m x 65 m. ABG was planning shipyard in Dahej with dry docks measuring 400m x 45m

This article sounds like India is going to build just one 40,000 ton IAC. Which, would be followed by a much larger 65,000 design! (though very similar)

No if you look at the news report and then look at where the three IAC are supposed to go you would know why a larger carrier is in consideration.

Three IAC go to two AC groups in the two fleets.

These are conventional powered medium sized carriers that are tasked with providing air defence to the groups and to support intensive helicopter operations.

The area of operation of the two fleets is not that far from India and it is also one of the busiest sea routes.

Now what do you think two separate larger AC which will translate into one AC group will be tasked with?

Of course its just a idea that will be followed by increasing the capacity of a domestic shipyard to handle such a ship, and probably happen around when the IAC project completes, and will be preceded by a concept study first and a request for funds. (post 2022).

This is what Mr. Aroor overheard on his recent trip to CSL

The keel of India’s first indigenous aircraft carrier, to be the second warship christened INS Vikrant, will be laid on February 28 at Kochi. But it is now clear that while Cochin Shipyards will build three aircraft carriers in the current 37,500-ton category (the second and third are to be christened INS Viraat and INS Vishaal apparently), design work has already begun in earnest to develop and build two more aircraft carriers with not only much larger displacements, but possibly nuclear propulsion as well.

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/02/cochin-shipyard-to-build-5-aircraft.html

I think what the rumors are pointing towards is that it is under consideration and by no means a certain project, the IAC itself was under consideration for a long long time.

We’ve got a few docks big enough*

*The Graythorp dock on Teesside, now a ship breakers – and the largest dry dock in Europe. Harland & Wolff operate a 335 x 50.3 metre ship repair dock in Belfast, Inchgreen on the Clyde is 305 x 47 metres, & the now decommissioned (but still extant as a wet dock) Southampton no 7 (King George V) dock was 365 x 40.3 metres. All could have been selected.

I’ve been puzzled by recent reports that Graythorp is the largest drydock in the world, as I’ve always thought H&W’s ship repair dock held that honour. Hard facts about dimensions and infrastructure are hard to get on the net though:(

Thank Shiv Aroor not me 🙂

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/03/photos-keel-laying-ceremony-of.html

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/03/photos-last-batch-of-photos-from-cochin.html

Great Pics………..and thanks!:D:D:D

So has anyone got a link to some pictures of the keel laying ?

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/03/photos-keel-laying-ceremony-of.html

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/03/photos-last-batch-of-photos-from-cochin.html

So has anyone got a link to some pictures of the keel laying ?

Here in the UK, we don’t have anywhere to house a 60.000+ aircraft carrier, yet we’re building two of them anyway. Hence why we’re building them in sections in different parts of the country while building a dry dock pretty much at the same time ready for them when they enter the sea. India could easily do the same I’m sure. Could they? 🙂

We’ve got a few docks big enough*, but none which are current shipbuilding docks & big enough in every respect. Rosyth was chosen for modification supposedly because it was the best industrial choice, but political factors were probably as important.

Apart from the gate & the steps inside the dock which narrow the floor, Rosyth no. 1 dock is big enough. The dock gate is being widened, the steps removed, & a lot of new hardware being installed. The dock is 310 metres long. The effective width was 31.4 metres because of the gate & steps, but that is being increased by the works to 42 metres.

*The Graythorp dock on Teesside, now a ship breakers – and the largest dry dock in Europe. Harland & Wolff operate a 335 x 50.3 metre ship repair dock in Belfast, Inchgreen on the Clyde is 305 x 47 metres, & the now decommissioned (but still extant as a wet dock) Southampton no 7 (King George V) dock was 365 x 40.3 metres. All could have been selected.

The scond IAC being 60000+ tons is bull****, because the Cochin Shipyard’s dry dock cannot house a ship that large, it will need a bigger dry dock for that. Unlikely for the time being.

Here in the UK, we don’t have anywhere to house a 60.000+ aircraft carrier, yet we’re building two of them anyway. Hence why we’re building them in sections in different parts of the country while building a dry dock pretty much at the same time ready for them when they enter the sea. India could easily do the same I’m sure. Could they? 🙂

Actually a Russian firm is helping with the Aircraft operation and deck. While Fincantieri is helping with propulsion system and design.

Well, if India is going to keep the Sea Harrier operational until ~2020. He11, she mite as well cancel the ex-Gorshkov Deal and just do a short-term lease with the UK for the HMS Invincible……..As the latter would be avialable much quicker and for much less money to boot. Which, would easily hold India over until the first and possibly second IAC……….

Harriers got updated with Elta 2032s and Derby BVRAAMs :).

The scond IAC being 60000+ tons is bull****, because the Cochin Shipyard’s dry dock cannot house a ship that large, it will need a bigger dry dock for that. Unlikely for the time being.

3/3/2009

MOSCOW. (RIA Novosti military commentator Ilya Kramnik) – …

Analysts have speculated that the new aircraft carrier’s design would be based on that of the Admiral Kuznetsov and Ulyanovsk, the last Soviet-era carrier, or even a new 40,000-ton aircraft carrier ordered by the Indian Navy and being co-designed by Russian specialists. The latter’s keel was laid on February 28, 2009. ….

The Russians may be providing arrester gear (nobody in Italy builds it), & some journalist blew that up into “co-designed”.

According to this source Russia helped India Co-Design the IAC’s! Which, is news to me…………..As it was my understanding that Italy (i.e. Finmeccanica) was the major partner in the project.:confused:

Fincantieri (shipyard, Finmeccanica it’s the other holding 😉 ) signed the contract on 2004

Defense News and Jane’s Defence Weekly (JDW) both reported in July/August 2004, that the Ministry of Defence awarded a $30 million contract to Fincantieri’s Naval Vessel Business Unit to help prepare concept, design and implementation plans for the vessel. The company will also provide designs to integrate the propulsion system, engine room layouts and overall validation of systems, besides conducting sea trials.

In the interim, India intends to continue operating Sea Harriers upto 2020 (yes 2020), and has tried to purchase surplus retired ones from the UK (discussed on the last few pages of the PPRuNe Sea Jet thread).

Not taking chances with capability gaps, I guess.

Where would you get steam catapaults from anyway?

Well, if India is going to keep the Sea Harrier operational until ~2020. He11, she mite as well cancel the ex-Gorshkov Deal and just do a short-term lease with the UK for the HMS Invincible……..As the latter would be avialable much quicker and for much less money to boot. Which, would easily hold India over until the first and possibly second IAC……….:D

Russia Co-Developed IAC’s?

According to this source Russia helped India Co-Design the IAC’s! Which, is news to me…………..As it was my understanding that Italy (i.e. Finmeccanica) was the major partner in the project.:confused:

3/3/2009

MOSCOW. (RIA Novosti military commentator Ilya Kramnik) – Russia’s state-controlled United Ship-Building Corporation (USBC) has disclosed some specifications of a new-generation aircraft carrier currently being developed for the country’s Navy.

Unlike Soviet-era aircraft cruisers of the Kiev class, the nuclear-powered ship with a displacement of 60,000 metric tons will not carry any cruise missiles.

Analysts have speculated that the new aircraft carrier’s design would be based on that of the Admiral Kuznetsov and Ulyanovsk, the last Soviet-era carrier, or even a new 40,000-ton aircraft carrier ordered by the Indian Navy and being co-designed by Russian specialists. The latter’s keel was laid on February 28, 2009.

It appears that the new warship will closely resemble advanced NATO carriers also displacing 60,000 metric tons. This revelation has been indirectly confirmed by media reports about the interest of Russia’s top naval brass in the projects of France’s Thales, a leading developer of advanced CVF carriers for the British Royal Navy and PA-2 carriers for the French Navy.

Her dimensions will match those of the PA-2 with a standard displacement of 59,000 metric tons, while her full displacement will total 75,000 metric tons. Unlike the French carrier, which will have a gas-turbine propulsion unit, the Russian ship will be powered by a nuclear reactor and will have a different air wing.

The carrier’s air wing has received most of the attention. At present, Russia has two types of carrier-borne fighters, namely, the Sukhoi Su-33 Flanker-D and the Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-29K Fulcrum-D.

Su-33 planes based on the Admiral Kuznetsov are gradually becoming obsolete. Consequently, it would be inappropriate to resume production of these aircraft for the advanced carrier.

Russia has now begun manufacturing MiG-29K fighters for India’s Vikramaditya carrier, a revamped version of the Admiral Gorshkov aircraft cruiser. This warplane is more advanced than its predecessor, the basic MiG-29 version which entered service with the Soviet Air Force in 1983.

Although batch production of MiG-29K fighters can begin in the next 12 to 24 months, they cannot be called ideal carrier-borne fighters that must be big and heavy enough for full-fledged strike missions.

Consequently, a carrier-borne version of the fifth-generation fighter, namely, the Prospective (Promising) Aircraft System of the Frontline Aviation (PAK FA) now being developed by the Sukhoi Design Bureau, remains the best possible option so far.

The heavy-duty PAK FA fighter will probably have a standard take-off weight of about 30 metric tons and will be fitted with 117-S power-plants developing a thrust of 14.5 metric tons and even more powerful turbines in the future.

The new plane can be used as a multi-role fighter and will also be able to fly strike and air-defense missions. The sufficiently large new-generation carrier will accommodate an air wing comprising 30 to 36 heavy-duty fighters, not to mention aircraft of other types.

A mixed air wing comprising 24 heavy-duty and 24 light-weight planes, including MiG-29Ks or advanced light-weight fighters, can also be deployed onboard the carrier whose deck and hangars will also accommodate unmanned combat air vehicles (UCAVs), helicopters and auxiliary multi-role planes.

Still it is unclear whether the new carrier will be equipped with catapults or a ramp, like the one in the bow section of her predecessor, the Admiral Kuznetsov. Analysts are hotly debating the advantages and drawbacks of each take-off method.

Little is known about the development of advanced auxiliary carrier-borne aircraft, namely, AWACS-type long-range early-warning planes, anti-submarine warfare (ASW) helicopters, etc.

The construction site has yet to be selected. Technically speaking, St Petersburg’s Baltiisky Zavod (Baltic Shipyard), which has already built large-tonnage civil vessels and Project 1144 Orlan nuclear-powered cruisers of the Kirov class, can complete the carrier.

The Severodvinsk-based Sevmash shipyard in northern Russia, currently upgrading the air-capable cruiser Admiral Gorshkov for the Indian Navy and building a dry dock for ships with a displacement of up to 100,000 metric tons, is another option.

As there are plans to commission between three and six new carriers, the parties involved must settle various production, deployment, escort, crew-training and accommodation issues, as well as numerous other one.

All these issues must be solved using a nonrecurring procedure, thereby increasing the carrier program’s chances of success.

In the interim, India intends to continue operating Sea Harriers upto 2020 (yes 2020), and has tried to purchase surplus retired ones from the UK (discussed on the last few pages of the PPRuNe Sea Jet thread).

Not taking chances with capability gaps, I guess.

Where would you get steam catapaults from anyway?

With her arrester gear installed she could probably operate the Mig29k STOBAR but it would be a BIG JOB!

Did UK gov remove her arrester gear engines when she went Harrier Carrier or are they going rusty below deck?

Hermes conversion to a Commando Carrier between 1971 and 1973 involved the removal of her catapults and arrestor gear (including all below decks equipment), and cost abour £25million. Additionally a small chunk of her angled deck was cut away in order to fit the davits for her LCVPs, and the sponson for her projector sights went too. The island was extended aft to accomodate satellite communications gear. After conversion her bows sat a foot higher in the water than her stern, so the loss of her cats at least did make a noticeable difference to her. Many of her internal compartments were re organised to provide accomodation for up to 900 Marines and their gear. In 1977 she was refitted as an ASW carrier, the chief difference being a type 184 sonar installed in her hull. Her Commando facilities were unaffected.

In 1980-81 she was again refitted, this time gaining a 12 degree ski jump at the bow, though contrary to popular belief her deck was not reinforced to operate Sea Harriers, as it was already built to take the kinetic energy of a Sea Vixen or Buccaneer hitting the deck at 130knots. A Sea Harrier weighs half what either of those two do and it arrives on deck with a vertical speed of about five to ten knots. Nor is the exhaust from a Harrier hot enough to require a special coating on the deck, as the wooden decked Spanish carrier Dedalo proved.

Well hermes used to have cats and traps anyway, so it must be a simple job to ‘plug and play’!:D;):eek::diablo:

With her arrester gear installed she could probably operate the Mig29k STOBAR but it would be a BIG JOB!

Did UK gov remove her arrester gear engines when she went Harrier Carrier or are they going rusty below deck?

Well hermes used to have cats and traps anyway, so it must be a simple job to ‘plug and play’!:D;):eek::diablo:

sources (by this i mean me) suggest that INS Viraat is currently in drydock having steam catapults and arrestor gear in stalled so she can operate the MIG-29s…….as this will be MUCH more cost effective, and faster than waiting for the great russian abortion to be delivered.:D

and a lot cheaper!;)