An open Falklands discussion!

Jonesy Ref # 10

Read again your post , regarding naval bombardment on the Radars:

Night of May 01 , I had placed the radar a couple of days early on top of Sapper Hill – A perfect view of surroundings , no obstructions to the north or east , during the day observed al incursions , in the evening we saw the ships coming in , Air force came after them ( question here to Mt Jonesy : any damage here ? ) – the ships sail away – Night falls , I set the radar with a one degree negative to improve image on ships – At night fall ships come back , detected at about 20 NM – If i remember right two come forward one remains farther away – Navigate paralel to the shore line south of Stanley , see clearly helicopter taking off –
These early seeing of ships approach always gave us a 15 to 20 minutes early alarm for naval bombardment that was transmited to everyone –
That night Ship aims at Radra , shoots salvos of about 8 grounds then makes corrections and shoots again – When firts salvo hits we were inside the radar , i was able to turn it of and jump into a fox hole – Ships keeps firing on a fire pause ( while correcting aim) I pull out of the hole and lower the antena -This may have been seen as damaged from the Helicopter and fire stop-
Generator damage , antena damage by sharpnel , cabin Ok – Took two days to replace generator and other minor repairs – Chose another position –

Night of June 11 , during the day as usual operating as long range air detection , during nights as early alarm for aproaching ships and spoter for 155 guns firig against ships – That night I saw the usual ships coming in , that was the night that they were going to try again with the exorcet from land –
Suddenly late at night we received naval bombardment from the ship , I still have doubts which ship was it and if it had come as usual from the south –
First shots fall on top of us , no time to turn off equipment , try to run to fox hole which was about 50 yards away towards the bay – We didn’t make it , you here the whistle sound approaching , if that whistle stops it means its falling on you , if it goes on you are lucky – Al whistle sounds of bombs stop on top of us – Even on the ground covering your head very bright light can be seen – We had casualties / dead wounded –
End of Radar , damage again generator , antena and cabin –

I still have the doubt which ship and if it came as usual from the south or was this one in another bay or innlet north of us – It seem to me that it may have been proximity war head because all explotions seen to be in the air not hitting the ground – I may be wrong but that is what it look like –

Regards Enrique

Westinghouse I don’t remember of hit by naval bombardment , don’t think so I will double check , Westinghouse had a very close call with shrick missil –

TEEJ Ref # 11

Thank you Sir

Jonesy Ref # 10

Thank you Sir for the info –

Cardion Radar never went to sleep during naval bombardment , other than the two times when we were hit by the Ship ( Night of May 01 and night of June 11)
We had a clear view of Ships coming in , we saw very well when helicopter lift off to guide artillery – Maximun range we saw ships approaching the coast about 20/22 NM (when at Sapper Hill)
about 16 NM (when by road to airport)

Westinghouse not sure I presume it may have turn off at night , when no Air Activity –

Since 2 week of may , we guided 155 mm fires against Ships Bombarding –

Thanks, Regards Enrique

Regarding Belgrano and stricktly from the military accion that took place , we have the following information , and we would like to know if correct –

Three torpedos fired , two hit belgrano – The third one ? aimed at an escort or missed -?

Were the escorts at any time targeted ?

Escorts did they ever had the oportunity to detect the HMS Conqueror , or was it an imposible –

After achiving the mission , HMS Conqueror remains in site or departs to other areas ?

Thank you
Regards Enrique

This document should assist you, Enrique.

It would appear that the escorts did not detect the Conqueror at any stage. The Conqueror detected no active transmissions from the escorts. Apparently one of the 3 torpedos fired at the Belgrano possibly hit one of the escorts.

http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/CB3BCDD7-EFC8-45AD-959D-548E866B0962/0/op_corporate1982_belgrano_sinking_keydocs.pdf

‘Page 146
B-68
1813
START EVENT 02/01 – ATTACK ON TG 79.3 – G BELGRANO

CO COMMENT

In positon 55 23.1S 61 21.0W.
I am on the port quarter of TG 79.3 and my target, the Cruiser G BELGRANO, is on the left wing. My intention is to close to a firing position such that I shall fire a salvo of 3 x Mk 8 Mod 4’s from 1800 yds on a Torpedo Track Angle of 100 degrees and a zero gyro angle. I shall then evade to the SE leaving the datum between me and the destroyers for as long as possibel to assist my escape.’

Reference the Bouchard. In the book ‘Sink the Belgrano – Mike Rossiter’. It reveals that Conqueror received a signal containing an intelligence update from Northwood. Apparently the Argentine communications were not too secure. The radio traffic cyphers could be easily read by UK intelligence. One of the signals received from Northwood was the report sent by the Bouchard to the mainland after the Belgrano had been attacked. The signal detailed that the third torpedo had hit the keel of the Bouchard, damaging its sonar and starting leaks, although the warhead hadn’t exploded.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sink-Belgrano-Mike-Rossiter/dp/0593058429

According to detailed interviews the agreement was that if either the Bouchard, Buena or Belgrano was hit by a torpedo then the surviving vessels should exit the area as quickly as possible. It was revealed that both the Bouchard and Buena moved 30 miles to the north at high speed after the attack on the Belgrano. The book reveals that their training was against conventional subs. Against an SSN there was no scenario that produced any success rate.

In the report it reveals that explosions could be heard after the Belgrano was hit. Initially this was suspected to be anti-sub ops by the Bouchard and Buena. Even the survivors from the Belgrano reported hearing explosions after the Belgrano sank. It seems likely that this was the boilers, etc blowing under pressure. The explosions were monitored on the Conqueror for some time as she moved away from the site of the attack. The next day the Conqueror moved back to the site of the attack to monitor the rescue operations.

Regards

TJ

Enrique,

First please accept my thanks for the information you provided about the radar installations on the island. I was going to ask you about the effects of our gunfire as I’d been told that the radars had been observed to drop offline following several shellings. I was never sure if this was just the systems being resited or whether they were damaged and needed bringing back into service. Thanks for clearing that one up!.

Three torpedos fired , two hit belgrano – The third one ? aimed at an escort or missed -?

The third Mk8 was fired in salvo ahead of Belgrano’s position from a firing point about 1500yds off the vessels port beam. As I understand it the two escorts were positioned on the Belgrano’s starboard beam (ARA Piedro Buena) and line ahead on the bows (ARA Hipolito Bouchard) just off to starboard. The whole salvo was aimed at the Belgrano.

What seems likely is that the third Mk8 missed forward of the Belgrano and kept on its merry way towards the Bouchard. I’ve never heard anyhting definite about whether a third explosion was recorded on Conks’ sonar – the possibility is that the noise put in the water by the Belgrano’s break up could’ve masked the third detonation even if it happened.

I’ve read a piece, allegedly from the Bouchards skipper – Capt Barcena, that suggested he believed his ship had suffered damage from an explosion close aboard, but, that his ship wasn’t directly struck by a torpedo. I find that a little hard to believe to be honest – the odds against a weapon that missed one ship ending up on a bearing to a second and detonating just close enough to the hull to avoid sinking it….but enough to put a few 5″ wide cracks in is just a little too much for me to easily believe I’m afraid. I think that the torpedo ‘damage’ on the hull was probably something a bit more mundane, like exposure to very heavy seas would do to an old hull anyway, and the third torpedo was a straight miss.

Escorts did they ever had the oportunity to detect the HMS Conqueror , or was it an imposible

Belgrano had no working sonar apparently and Wreford-Brown had been very careful to make his approach on a bearing that had him masked from Piedro Buena by the Belgrano itself and was in the Bouchards stern arc. It was a very professional approach – even if the two escorts had been equipped with decent sonar (which according to Barcena they weren’t) neither would have had much of a hope of tagging Conks even at 1400yds owing to how the escorts were situated.

After achiving the mission , HMS Conqueror remains in site or departs to other areas ?

I’ll have to check but I think that she went west after the Belgrano engagement and performed intel/raid warning duties off the Argentine coast.

Falklands / Belgrano

Regarding Belgrano and stricktly from the military accion that took place , we have the following information , and we would like to know if correct –

Three torpedos fired , two hit belgrano – The third one ? aimed at an escort or missed -?

Were the escorts at any time targeted ?

Escorts did they ever had the oportunity to detect the HMS Conqueror , or was it an imposible –

After achiving the mission , HMS Conqueror remains in site or departs to other areas ?

Thank you
Regards Enrique

Regarding Mr Fedaykin request Ref # 4 (Bombs) i suggest to wait for Mr Willy Cobra chief Technitian on Dagger during conflict and pilot of M3 Miragge – He has been posting something related to this matter on the Sue/Exprcet forum , we are going to ask him to report to this forum and let him explain his experience on this matter –

There are other topics on Thread Sue/Super Etendard that will need to move into this one :

1) One was related to Triple A positions by the Airport requested by Mr Jonesy
and it was reply already-
2) One related to Roland positions and Radar positions during conflict also requested by Mr Jonesy , in part reply . I think he may want to go into more details ( I suggest inviting Mr Jonesy into this thread ) so we can continue –
3) One topic also talked about is the first Vulcan incursion on may 01 , we had some doubts about if it was in reach of triple A – It may be still open for further details –

Thank you –
Regards Enrique –

Why dont you just PM “jonesy” and ask him this stuff? 😮

Mr Fedaykin Ref # 4

Regarding Mr Fedaykin request Ref # 4 (Bombs) i suggest to wait for Mr Willy Cobra chief Technitian on Dagger during conflict and pilot of M3 Miragge – He has been posting something related to this matter on the Sue/Exprcet forum , we are going to ask him to report to this forum and let him explain his experience on this matter –

There are other topics on Thread Sue/Super Etendard that will need to move into this one :

1) One was related to Triple A positions by the Airport requested by Mr Jonesy
and it was reply already-
2) One related to Roland positions and Radar positions during conflict also requested by Mr Jonesy , in part reply . I think he may want to go into more details ( I suggest inviting Mr Jonesy into this thread ) so we can continue –
3) One topic also talked about is the first Vulcan incursion on may 01 , we had some doubts about if it was in reach of triple A – It may be still open for further details –

Thank you –
Regards Enrique –

Okay, drawing a line under the previous thread, let us discuss, rationally, the possible strategies had the conflict not gone the way it did. The majority of the discussion on the other thread was highly interesting, and does merit discussion. The issues of global nuclear war are, obviously, not relevant, or discussions of WW2. However, the issue of whether nuclear weapons were on the table is highly relevant. Through the somewhat disturbing recollections of Mitterand, among other sources, we know that the nuclear option was very much on the table.

Similarly, it is worth discussing the possibility of withdrawal of the naval task force; and the possible encampment on West Falkland. The chances of success in this radical option is certainly worthy of discussion!

This thread is entirely needed, and is not a case of opening several threads on the same subject. This thread is not intended to be limited to a discussion of the issues that the other (now closed) thread dealt with, but rather a more general discussion of the issues surrounding the conflict.

The existing threads are specific to the Super Etendard and Exocet, and a Mod has effectively asked that general Falklands discussions (especially about alternative scenarios) must go elsewhere.

No he didn’t! The thread had moved onto a possible global nuclear war discussion and a bickering contest over WWII etc. Please keep it “Falklands” specific. That thread is now locked, so please do not open several threads covering the same topic! You have a chance for a great discussion, don’t ruin it by slinging mud at each other.

Sounds like a good idea to me.

I want to hear more about the Spanish made bombs alluded to my one of our Argentine Air force members. It has always been the case in the UK that the use of British made bombs has been highly reported. It would be interesting to hear about the other munitions used.

The existing threads are specific to the Super Etendard and Exocet, and a Mod has effectively asked that general Falklands discussions (especially about alternative scenarios) must go elsewhere. This thread is for the open discussion of the conflict itself, including the tactics and weapons used, and, importantly, the tactics and weapons that might have been used had things turned out differently. Specific issues dealing with Etendard or Exocet should continue to go on in those other threads.

Basically, I’m not a Moderator here, so it’s not really up to me where discussions should go. However, I have opened this thread to allow a continuation of the discussions that were not welcomed on what is effectively now an Exocet thread. This thread is for pretty much anything anyone wants to discuss, and preferably in as open a way as possible! No restrictions (other than those the forum’s Mods enforce) on what can be discussed. If you want to discuss something in real detail, e.g. AAA or the Mirage III/Dagger, then you might be best opening up a specific thread.

Mr EdLaw Ref # 1

Good Morning Sir

We have 3 open threads :

-One Sue / Super Etendard / Exorcet
-One Falklands Naval War Discussion (were things related to Exorcet were also input here )
-One Open Falklands Discussion Just open by you –

Could you please indicate us were this topics should go :
1-Ground related actions
2-Triple AAA ( I’ve been posting on thread Sue/Super Etendard and on thread “What if …
3-M3 Mirage / Dagger Actions ( Willy was a pilot on M3 ) he has been posting on thread Sue / Super Etendard – Probably will need to move from there ?

If you could please assign specifics / topics on each thread so that we can avoid someone interested in Roland / Radar actions having to go through the Sue / Super Etendard thread to read about it –

Thank you

Regards Enrique