Indian Navy without AIrcraft until July 09!

The purpose of the Japanese expansion into Asia and the Pacific region was for resources, not conquest as such… they weren’t after living space in the south pacific.
The loss of one US carrier would be immaterial to these plans. Australia was attacked even with the US carrier there BTW… Darwin was bombed. But bombing Darwin and invading Australia are two very different things.

BTW the “support of the US” is BS as well. If they really wanted to support us then they would have been fighting some time earlier than December 1941.
The reality is that they could care less about us… they fought the Japs because the Japs attacked them and their new colonies in the Pacific.

That is the most twisted spin on WWII History that I’ve ever heard? I doubt you would find any Veterans of WWII that would agree with you…….including the ones from your own country! Really, you need to address your rascism and hatred towards the US. As it will be your undoing……:p

What part am I making up? That is was likely that Japan would attack and invade Australia and New Zealand without the support of the US and its only remaining Aircraft Carrier.

The purpose of the Japanese expansion into Asia and the Pacific region was for resources, not conquest as such… they weren’t after living space in the south pacific.
The loss of one US carrier would be immaterial to these plans. Australia was attacked even with the US carrier there BTW… Darwin was bombed. But bombing Darwin and invading Australia are two very different things.

BTW the “support of the US” is BS as well. If they really wanted to support us then they would have been fighting some time earlier than December 1941.
The reality is that they could care less about us… they fought the Japs because the Japs attacked them and their new colonies in the Pacific.

If, India became involved in a major conflict. The loss of its single Carrier could have a great impact……………clearly not likely. Yet, that is why Countries have Armed Forces. As insurance………:rolleyes:

IF IF IF ….

THere is no tense situation at present. And unlikely in the near term. Besides, IN would appear to have an adequate supply of other ships with which to respond. It is not that the entire navy goes useless all of a sudden just because the carrier is not available. If push came to shove, a single active carrier might not even be risked in conflict (see Argentina v UK 1982)

Here is what Ex-Admiral Arun Prakash said about the importance of aircraft carrier courtsey Aroor.

Admiral Arun Prakash: It is not quite appropriate to say that an aircraft-carrier’s sole purpose is to project power, and that a battle group (CBG) is therefore only an offensive unit/formation… So why does India need one? This is an old debate and could go on for a long time, but let me just make a couple of brief points:

An aircraft carrier’s raison d’etre is to provide comprehensive support to maritime forces, and not the other way round. This support can be to forces operating at sea, as well as ashore. At sea, the support is in all three dimensions. For example: it would take many hours/days of search by LRMP (long-range maritime patrol) aircraft or ASW (anti-submarine warfare) ships to localise a diesel submarine (SSN or SSBN in the very near future) in the Indian Ocean. Thereafter, it will require a force of 6-8 large ASW helicopters operating around the clock to search and locate such an elusive target, and attack it if required. Only a carrier can provide this kind of sustained ASW support within a few minutes of flying time and for as long as required.

If our maritime forces are going to operate within range of enemy air threat, which could be from strike aircraft, or missile-armed LRMP machines, they will require fighter protection within a matter of minutes, and 24×7. Again, only a carrier operating in support of the force can provide this kind of cover.

The carrier’s fighters will also make sure that no surface ship (missile armed or otherwise) can get anywhere near 150-200 miles of a maritime force.

Finally, carriers are an invaluable asset in littoral and amphibious warfare, because of their manifold capabilities, including sea-lift as well as heli-lift. Carrier critics will of talk of the size & vulnerability of a carrier. Nothing at sea is invulnerable, and certainly not in war. But carriers, by virtue of their integral aircraft and helicopter force can keep any threat at bay. And if hit, by virtue of their size can absorb far more damage than any other ship. – AP

France CDG will be available at the end of 2008 (may be) after 18-20 months of maintanance (every 5 years). The spanish PdA is completing its maintence and the italian Giuseppe Garibaldi is not in maintainance, but in active duty. The GG will go for maintainance next year when the already ready Cavour will be admitted in the fleet, so Italy will doesn’t have a breack as France, Spain, India or Uk. Uk has 2 aircraft carriers in service, but the RN has no more aircrafts.

http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/server/show/nav.00h00100200200k

TJ

Yeah… that must have been the most powerful carrier ever built if it could secure the entire Pacific by itself… and look at a map… the Japs are unlikely to have attacked New Zealand before attacking Australia.

They wanted natural resources, like oil and raw materials. They first went towards Siberia and got stopped emphatically by Zhukov. After that they went south but could just as easily have gone East to Alaska, and Canada and the US.

It ignores the distances involved and of course the purpose of the invasion. Not much oil down here.
Why do you think it unlikely they would be happy with occupying a part of the US? The Germans didn’t want siberia and were only interested in European Russia. The Japs didn’t try to take every square inch of China.

Which invasion fleet heading toward New Zealand did the US carrier stop exactly? None? So you are making it all up… yeah pretty much you are.

I doubt many Historians would agree with your intrepretations. What part am I making up? That is was likely that Japan would attack and invade Australia and New Zealand without the support of the US and its only remaining Aircraft Carrier.

Yeah… that must have been the most powerful carrier ever built if it could secure the entire Pacific by itself… and look at a map… the Japs are unlikely to have attacked New Zealand before attacking Australia.

They wanted natural resources, like oil and raw materials. They first went towards Siberia and got stopped emphatically by Zhukov. After that they went south but could just as easily have gone East to Alaska, and Canada and the US.

It ignores the distances involved and of course the purpose of the invasion. Not much oil down here.
Why do you think it unlikely they would be happy with occupying a part of the US? The Germans didn’t want siberia and were only interested in European Russia. The Japs didn’t try to take every square inch of China.

Which invasion fleet heading toward New Zealand did the US carrier stop exactly? None? So you are making it all up… yeah pretty much you are.

I doubt many Historians would agree with your intrepretations. What part am I making up? That is was likely that Japan would attack and invade Australia and New Zealand without the support of the US and its only remaining Aircraft Carrier.

If, the US had lost its only Carrier in the Pacific. The gateway would have been wide open for the Japanese to invade New Zealand and very likely Australia.

Yeah… that must have been the most powerful carrier ever built if it could secure the entire Pacific by itself… and look at a map… the Japs are unlikely to have attacked New Zealand before attacking Australia.

Further, Japan wanted control over the whole of Southeast Asia not the continental US. (The Japanese just wanted the US out of the way.)

They wanted natural resources, like oil and raw materials. They first went towards Siberia and got stopped emphatically by Zhukov. After that they went south but could just as easily have gone East to Alaska, and Canada and the US.

Australia and NZ on the other hand are different stories (which is not to deinigrate those countries, but reflects their relative size and population).

It ignores the distances involved and of course the purpose of the invasion. Not much oil down here.
Why do you think it unlikely they would be happy with occupying a part of the US? The Germans didn’t want siberia and were only interested in European Russia. The Japs didn’t try to take every square inch of China.

Exactly my point……………GarryB states the lost of a single Carrier is no big deal. Yet, his very own country (i.e. New Zealand) was likely saved by the only available USN Carrier (Enterprise) in 1942…………and without it History may have been very different!

Which invasion fleet heading toward New Zealand did the US carrier stop exactly? None? So you are making it all up… yeah pretty much you are.

Duh, obviously. Still, that is all in the (albeit near) future. However, in the past decade, I’ve not seen anybody make a lot of noise (see first post) whenever PdA of Garibaldi went in for maintenance or refit WHILE BEING THE SOLE FLATTOP in the respective navy. Nor any such postings when CdG because the sole flattop of France with Clemanceau mothballed and Foch over to Brazil.

There is no problem per se for Harriers of different nations to crossdeck. However, at this point in time, there are too few suitable decks IN OPERATION. It will be december before Spain gets another deck.

Agree, more flattops is nice. However, given one oldie, it is not the end of the world for the IN. They will be better off once they are putting around in their 2-3 homebuild ones.

Nothing to overreact about.

ALSO, there is a big difference between French Rafales getting to train on a USN ship while CdG is out of service and the French telling the US skipper to sail her to point X from where the French aircraft will launch an air strike against some third party.

If, India became involved in a major conflict. The loss of its single Carrier could have a great impact……………clearly not likely. Yet, that is why Countries have Armed Forces. As insurance………:rolleyes:

Wan: Forshame on you mate, you should know what is going on just as well as I do! See list:

Italy has GG and will soon have Cavour, one in and one out

Spain: Has PdA and will soon have Juan Carlos, again one in and one out

France: Has CdG and will get the PA2 sometime soon, see a pattern here mate?

Add to this, the recent true test of “International Carrier” with the Deployment of the Ark with Spanish and Italian planes and I really don’t see a prob here (except for the French who don’t operate harriers- guess they can rely on the American’s- hahahaha, yeah right).

Duh, obviously. Still, that is all in the (albeit near) future. However, in the past decade, I’ve not seen anybody make a lot of noise (see first post) whenever PdA of Garibaldi went in for maintenance or refit WHILE BEING THE SOLE FLATTOP in the respective navy. Nor any such postings when CdG because the sole flattop of France with Clemanceau mothballed and Foch over to Brazil.

There is no problem per se for Harriers of different nations to crossdeck. However, at this point in time, there are too few suitable decks IN OPERATION. It will be december before Spain gets another deck.

Agree, more flattops is nice. However, given one oldie, it is not the end of the world for the IN. They will be better off once they are putting around in their 2-3 homebuild ones.

Nothing to overreact about.

ALSO, there is a big difference between French Rafales getting to train on a USN ship while CdG is out of service and the French telling the US skipper to sail her to point X from where the French aircraft will launch an air strike against some third party.

Italy has GG and will soon have Cavour, one in and one out

the French are using Big-E when CDG is in dry dock i can’t find the arctical though, and not all the Rafs are deploying just a few aircraft

Cavour is half in, it can operate AV-8B and EH-101 but it’s systems aren’t complete. System can operate only basic defence. FOC on april 09

About 6-8 Rafale and 2 E-2F are going to train in July 2008 aboard the USS Roosevelt off Norfolk.

Add to this, the recent true test of “International Carrier” with the Deployment of the Ark with Spanish and Italian planes and I really don’t see a prob here

It was ‘Lusty’ not Ark, but point taken. The RN might not have much of a FJ force at the moment but it has always punched above it’s weight when required. Currently the two FAA Harrier sqns 800NAS and 801NAS are operating as a combined unit known as the Naval Strike Wing with a nominal complement of 12 GR7/9s (the two RAF Harrier sqns have 9 aircraft each) and I suspect this has more to do with a shortage of aircraft than pilots. Several sources have stated that they are only short of one QFI to stand up 801 to RAF standards (not vital by RN standards) and the ‘pilot shortage’ excuse was thought up to cover the real reason. The GR7/9 fleet was supposed to last until the F-35B arrives, but this has been postponed by at least six years now and at the current rate of use the existing fleet will have used up it’s airframe hours before then. Solution: reduce the numbers in the frontline fleet to eke out the airframe hours in order to stay operational until F-35B becomes available. This has meant only three and a third sqns worth of aircraft rather than four can be kept in service at any given time, hence the NSW.

[QUOTE=Ja Worsley;1235151]Wan: Forshame on you mate, you should know what is going on just as well as I do! See list:

Italy has GG and will soon have Cavour, one in and one out

Spain: Has PdA and will soon have Juan Carlos, again one in and one out

France: Has CdG and will get the PA2 sometime soon, see a pattern here mate?

Add to this, the recent true test of “International Carrier” with the Deployment of the Ark with Spanish and Italian planes and I really don’t see a prob here (except for the French who don’t operate harriers- guess they can rely on the American’s- hahahaha, yeah right).
the French are using Big-E when CDG is in dry dock i can’t find the arctical though, and not all the Rafs are deploying just a few aircraft

European: That’s not entirely true mate, RN sqdn’s have just been coming online with GR-9’s and these are part of the JHF.

AV-8B Harrier II+ over the L-51 Galicia

http://www.truveo.com/Harrier-en-Buque-de-Asalto/id/139466037

And some funny… Sea Harrier landed in a spanish cargo ship…

1Saludo

Now having my two cents worth about the original issue:

Indian has for many years, haggled over the right price for what it wants, in the end she gets the price but sadly the world has moved on and thus the price that they want to pay initially is for- what the world sees at time of purchase- old technology.

Indai has billions to spend on its military and we all are amazed at the deals she enters into, but then comes the years of haggling and this is where they loose all credibility. Everyone keeps talking about the sleeping dragon that is India, but sadly I think the dragon is just about dead! It needs a 300Khz jolt to bring it back to life and one loud message sounding right throughtout the governments- “CLEAR”!

I don’t dispise the Indians, heck many of my friends are Indian, and they too can see my points. The Government needs to set out a clear pollicy on what it wants, how it will go about buying them and look realistically on it’s prices (The Qatari Mirage deal comes clearly to mind here).All this price negotiation is harming not only their staff, but as they are now aware, their ability to defend themselves! Given the critical state of affairs in Delhi atm, a militant Pakistani with a screw driver could walk in and take over India, how then can they meet the challenges of China who is basically, ready to go?

The whole Gorshkov deal was one huge farce and the Russians are the ones laughing because they are the ones who are squeezing money out of the Indians. I would have canned the deal after the first two failures to set a price, I would not have bought the Migs (as it stands they will be the only country operating that particular model- too large a risk factor).

Instead I would have kicked the Local carrier into top gear (after all they want three of these, as it stands, with the delays, they’ll be lucky to get one), Kicked HAL in the patootie and told them to hurry up with the LCA(N) and fired my government for the imcompetant fools that they have become, that includes the top brass who kept changing their minds on what they wanted.

In India everything moves at their own pace..which is not very swift!The main problem here is bureaucracy and number two is politics.And that includes the services also.I am told we are supposed to inherit our penpushing organisational ways from the brits.Do they suffer from the same kind of red tape?Anyway!300KHz jolt…heh that was a nice one…a Pearl Harbour type perhaps?As ar as the Qatari Mirages go..they were overpriced and I think its good that we didnt go for them with the impending purchase of the mrca.As far as the local gear is considered..the IN cannot be faulted.The IAF on the other hand is clearly acts like a spoilt brat and wants to have everything that it sees on the shop window.

I think this may be confusion created by the websites slightly poor turn of phrase. The hangar will be used when a chopper needs maintenance and the weather conditions necessitate some form of cover.

For example a Sea Kings engine covers fold down to form a work platform for the staff to perch on whilst hitting the noisy bits with various hammers – the normal motion of the ship, in a good seaway, can make this act tricky and unpleasant if it goes wrong!. If its blowing a force 6 and lashing it down with rain whilst the lads are up there as well then there will be mutinous grumblings from the senior rates mess for a good while. No skipper in his right mind wants this so giving them a tent to work in is a cheap and cheerful way of preserving a semblence of happiness in the aviation department!.

The retractable hangar therefore does accomodate the choppers, just not in the same way as a permanent hangar does for an embarked ships flight.

Got it.Thanks again Jonesy.

Wan: Forshame on you mate, you should know what is going on just as well as I do! See list:

Italy has GG and will soon have Cavour, one in and one out

Spain: Has PdA and will soon have Juan Carlos, again one in and one out

France: Has CdG and will get the PA2 sometime soon, see a pattern here mate?

Add to this, the recent true test of “International Carrier” with the Deployment of the Ark with Spanish and Italian planes and I really don’t see a prob here (except for the French who don’t operate harriers- guess they can rely on the American’s- hahahaha, yeah right).

European: That’s not entirely true mate, RN sqdn’s have just been coming online with GR-9’s and these are part of the JHF.

rayrubik: Sadly mate the former USS Trenton can not operate Harriers as her deck strength was not enough totake a harrier. Sure it can take the weight of a Harrier, but it’s the heat of the jet nozzels that stop this idea.

Jonesy: Here you go mate, two pics of Harriers on Fearless, the first is a T-2 taking off from her during trials to test such an idea, she was docked RN College Greenwichin this pic (another one floating around has her alongside at Portsmouth but I can’t find that one atm). The second pic is the one you described, an FRS-1 making an emergency fuel stop.

Now having my two cents worth about the original issue:

Indian has for many years, haggled over the right price for what it wants, in the end she gets the price but sadly the world has moved on and thus the price that they want to pay initially is for- what the world sees at time of purchase- old technology.

Indai has billions to spend on its military and we all are amazed at the deals she enters into, but then comes the years of haggling and this is where they loose all credibility. Everyone keeps talking about the sleeping dragon that is India, but sadly I think the dragon is just about dead! It needs a 300Khz jolt to bring it back to life and one loud message sounding right throughtout the governments- “CLEAR”!

I don’t dispise the Indians, heck many of my friends are Indian, and they too can see my points. The Government needs to set out a clear pollicy on what it wants, how it will go about buying them and look realistically on it’s prices (The Qatari Mirage deal comes clearly to mind here).All this price negotiation is harming not only their staff, but as they are now aware, their ability to defend themselves! Given the critical state of affairs in Delhi atm, a militant Pakistani with a screw driver could walk in and take over India, how then can they meet the challenges of China who is basically, ready to go?

The whole Gorshkov deal was one huge farce and the Russians are the ones laughing because they are the ones who are squeezing money out of the Indians. I would have canned the deal after the first two failures to set a price, I would not have bought the Migs (as it stands they will be the only country operating that particular model- too large a risk factor).

Instead I would have kicked the Local carrier into top gear (after all they want three of these, as it stands, with the delays, they’ll be lucky to get one), Kicked HAL in the patootie and told them to hurry up with the LCA(N) and fired my government for the imcompetant fools that they have become, that includes the top brass who kept changing their minds on what they wanted.

Ja- As always you bring up many excellent points! Also, as I stated Italy, France, and Spain work within NATO, EU, and a very strong Western Alliance. So, the loss of a single Carrier is usually made up from Member States! Plus, the ability to cross deck aircraft with other Carriers. Like your example of Spanish and Italian Harriers operating from RN Carriers!:D This type of cooperation will vey likely increase with the advent of the F-35B! As more nation will begin to operate STOVL Aircraft from Aircraft Carriers and Amphibious Ships. (i.e. LHA’s, LHD’s, etc.) With of course RAN coming to mind………any many likely to follow! (i.e. South Korea, Japan, etc.)

So, how are we going to respond when France’s CdG will undergo maintenance? Or Spain’s Principe d’Asturias? Or – untill recently – Italy’s Guiseppe Garibaldi?

Wan: Forshame on you mate, you should know what is going on just as well as I do! See list:

Italy has GG and will soon have Cavour, one in and one out

Spain: Has PdA and will soon have Juan Carlos, again one in and one out

France: Has CdG and will get the PA2 sometime soon, see a pattern here mate?

Add to this, the recent true test of “International Carrier” with the Deployment of the Ark with Spanish and Italian planes and I really don’t see a prob here (except for the French who don’t operate harriers- guess they can rely on the American’s- hahahaha, yeah right).

Uk has 2 aircraft carriers in service, but the RN has no more aircraft

European: That’s not entirely true mate, RN sqdn’s have just been coming online with GR-9’s and these are part of the JHF.

The Trenton can operate harriers cant it?

rayrubik: Sadly mate the former USS Trenton can not operate Harriers as her deck strength was not enough totake a harrier. Sure it can take the weight of a Harrier, but it’s the heat of the jet nozzels that stop this idea.

Jonesy: Here you go mate, two pics of Harriers on Fearless, the first is a T-2 taking off from her during trials to test such an idea, she was docked RN College Greenwichin this pic (another one floating around has her alongside at Portsmouth but I can’t find that one atm). The second pic is the one you described, an FRS-1 making an emergency fuel stop.

Now having my two cents worth about the original issue:

Indian has for many years, haggled over the right price for what it wants, in the end she gets the price but sadly the world has moved on and thus the price that they want to pay initially is for- what the world sees at time of purchase- old technology.

Indai has billions to spend on its military and we all are amazed at the deals she enters into, but then comes the years of haggling and this is where they loose all credibility. Everyone keeps talking about the sleeping dragon that is India, but sadly I think the dragon is just about dead! It needs a 300Khz jolt to bring it back to life and one loud message sounding right throughtout the governments- “CLEAR”!

I don’t dispise the Indians, heck many of my friends are Indian, and they too can see my points. The Government needs to set out a clear pollicy on what it wants, how it will go about buying them and look realistically on it’s prices (The Qatari Mirage deal comes clearly to mind here).All this price negotiation is harming not only their staff, but as they are now aware, their ability to defend themselves! Given the critical state of affairs in Delhi atm, a militant Pakistani with a screw driver could walk in and take over India, how then can they meet the challenges of China who is basically, ready to go?

The whole Gorshkov deal was one huge farce and the Russians are the ones laughing because they are the ones who are squeezing money out of the Indians. I would have canned the deal after the first two failures to set a price, I would not have bought the Migs (as it stands they will be the only country operating that particular model- too large a risk factor).

Instead I would have kicked the Local carrier into top gear (after all they want three of these, as it stands, with the delays, they’ll be lucky to get one), Kicked HAL in the patootie and told them to hurry up with the LCA(N) and fired my government for the imcompetant fools that they have become, that includes the top brass who kept changing their minds on what they wanted.

There was a very good reason why the nomenclature for the Harrier changed from V/STOL to STOVL a few years ago, yes it can jump take off and hover, and yes the facility is genuinely useful, but it has a hellish high fuel burn, restricts payload and in practice ski jump assisted take off is so vastly superior it has essentially rendered the iconic jump jet status little more than a good party trick for public displays and stuff. Also as Jonesy says, it’s not just about this, it’s the fuel and weapons storage, maintenance facilities, crew facilities, control facilities etc, even on the big LHD’s (USN excepted) it is either/or, not both, so they can function as effective CVL’s or function as effective LPH/D’s, but not both together without seriously undermining both roles to the point of rendering the idea a bit pointless.

Very good points………:D

[QUOTE=Phelgan;1234975]

Speaking Japanese is a bit OTT – they may have attacked the West Coast, give the public something to turn on the Government about, but in no way could they have feasibly held US (mainland) terrority for any length of time. Australia and NZ on the other hand are different stories (which is not to deinigrate those countries, but reflects their relative size and population).

Exactly my point……………GarryB states the lost of a single Carrier is no big deal. Yet, his very own country (i.e. New Zealand) was likely saved by the only available USN Carrier (Enterprise) in 1942…………and without it History may have been very different!:(