1997 CV(F) Design Study Drawing

I agree, it would be a nightmare to man (though if just a simple LHD type, the crew may be relatively small), and provide airgroups for. It is more the idea of actually having a proper RN back, with a capability lost since the ’60s!

I was really envisaging something more along the lines of the Spanish Juan Carlos LHD, rather than the Italian Cavour. Think more in terms of a super-sized HMS Ocean! …

The problem here is that Juan Carlos, or any similar ship, isn’t a carrier. She’s primarily an amphibious ship, with a secondary, compromised, & part-time carrier capability – note that, it’s one or the other, not amphibious and carrier simultaneously, & she’s planned to spend most of her time as an amphib, for good reasons.

She’s fairly slow (normal amphib speed), & although I’m no expert, I suspect throwing more power at her wouldn’t change that because of the hull shape, & that can’t be changed without removing the dock. The hull shape is optimised for carrying capacity (& that dock) at the expense of other factors, which I suspect would probably mean she’s more limited in air ops in heavy seas than a dedicated carrier need be. Internal arrangements are optimised for amphibious operations, which makes them less efficient for air ops.

Changing the design to make her more carrier-like would turn her into a Cavour clone. They’re different ends of the amhib/carrier dual-purpose spectrum.

The compromises inherent in buying Juan Carlos makes sense for Spain, which is trying to get maximum value from a smaller budget than the RN. She’s a good back-up to a single dedicated small carrier. But I feel that the RN (or the French navy) is above the cut-off point where it’s worthwhile. We’re better off with a couple of real carriers, perhaps with a secondary amphibious capability, & dedicated amphibs.

I agree, it would be a nightmare to man (though if just a simple LHD type, the crew may be relatively small), and provide airgroups for. It is more the idea of actually having a proper RN back, with a capability lost since the ’60s!

I was really envisaging something more along the lines of the Spanish Juan Carlos LHD, rather than the Italian Cavour. Think more in terms of a super-sized HMS Ocean!

The airwing would actually be quite modest, probably a single oversized squadron per ship at most. A total procurement of about 150 JSFs would probably be enough to provide five oversized squadrons. A small carrier with 20 or so JSFs would be more than enough for most duties, and it might even be possible to add in a small detachment of Predator UAVs, to help provide some air support. It would not be too much harder to crew these airwings than to provide the pair of larger airwings on the CVFs.

The big problem would obviously be in providing all the escorts – twice as many carriers half the size still need twice as many escorts. Sadly! I have to say, though, that the idea of Britain having four or five carriers is very tempting!

As well as manpower there is the provision of air groups, and they’re anything but cheap, whether CTOL, STOVL, STOBAR or purely rotary. And the LPH/LPD has a reputation as a cheap type based on the fact that most of them are built to commercial methods with economical diesels, lean manning and in many cases very limited C&C and sensor suites. If you put in fleet command facilities and a genuinely front line capable sensor suite, high power engines for high speed manouvering (probably, but not neccessarily gas turbines), build to fully military standards etc. they’re no longer the bargain that their cheaper brothers are. And since the CVF program needs at least some degree of speed and military functionality then a LPHD candidate would be much closer to the USN vessels of this type than an Ocean, and they’re probably not much different in price to the CVF anyway.

An interesting possibility might have been more ships – perhaps a cheaper LHD type ship, but three or four of them? Certainly a 30 or even 40,000 ton LHD type would have been quite cheap, and each could have still carried a good number of F-35Bs, possibly as many as 24 in the larger design. Four 40,000 ton LHDs, each escorted by a pair of T-45s, and a pair of T-23s would have been interesting! They could of course have operated as amphibs as well, with the ability to have one or two of them embarking a Marine commando unit, and their associated helicopters. They could even have been used as casualty treatment ships, and even been used for aviation training. This would have allowed them to replace Argus as well. In this case, four or five could even have been a possibility, allowing two at sea at any one time, and a third ready for sea, one in maintenance, and a final one in overhaul. All this for the approximate cost of the two CVFs!

Ahh the possibilities!

Ouch, the manpower:eek:

An interesting possibility might have been more ships – perhaps a cheaper LHD type ship, but three or four of them? Certainly a 30 or even 40,000 ton LHD type would have been quite cheap, and each could have still carried a good number of F-35Bs, possibly as many as 24 in the larger design. Four 40,000 ton LHDs, each escorted by a pair of T-45s, and a pair of T-23s would have been interesting! They could of course have operated as amphibs as well, with the ability to have one or two of them embarking a Marine commando unit, and their associated helicopters. They could even have been used as casualty treatment ships, and even been used for aviation training. This would have allowed them to replace Argus as well. In this case, four or five could even have been a possibility, allowing two at sea at any one time, and a third ready for sea, one in maintenance, and a final one in overhaul. All this for the approximate cost of the two CVFs!

Ahh the possibilities!

Interesting, sorry I can’t help with your request but judging from when the images were produced they can’t have been more than very early stage outline concept proposals, but that’s just my guess. Certainly, in the early stages there was a lot of talk of a vessel design seeming much closer to the Italian Cavour than what became the CVF.

interesting what if? what the CVF would look like if was a 26,000 to 35,000 ton carrier rather than the 65,000 ton monster that it became

i wonder if their were any basic line drawing were about

Interesting, sorry I can’t help with your request but judging from when the images were produced they can’t have been more than very early stage outline concept proposals, but that’s just my guess. Certainly, in the early stages there was a lot of talk of a vessel design seeming much closer to the Italian Cavour than what became the CVF.