Project 1153 picture question/general wondering

Not quite.. According to my attempts ot understand few russian sources, here’s what I know about 1153 in brief:

Its was the seccond attempt to create a conventional carrier after Kiev class was already in put in production. It was like you said much smaller design than the larger project 1160 which dated few years earlier. pr. 1153 was however slighlty smaller than Kuznetsov, just bellow 300 meters in lenght and roughly same displacement. It wasen’t cancelled due failure of catabult design but more due political decision to continue the Kiev class which was made under high belives to V/STOL planes. Defence minister Ustinov particularry had strong hopes for the future supersonic VSTOL plane which was to follow the Yak-38. In this belive he had generated virtually a hate-like feelings towards conventional carriers and did quite effectly mash all attempts to have conventional aicrafts over seas during his servicetime. Not only was 1153 soon cancelled after it had emerged, but also when the issue was reintroduced in the forms of Kuznetsov and Varyag, he managed to get his point of wiev trough and 1143.5/6 was to have Ski-jump for the use of the new VSTOL plane rather than catabults and arrestor vwires for conventional planes. What I’ve understood the VSTOL plane (Yak-41) was after this decision form the base of the fighter airwing. Even before the first unit was completed however sukhoi and MiG managed to proof that their new jets Su-27 and MiG-29 could take of from the ski-jump as well. As the ship was designed from the outset to field conventional planes, adopting the new STOBAR arragment didn’t proove too difficoult.

This is however my own intrepretion of the existing russian sources. Its done by using translator services and translated text and I might be wrong…perhaps someone has solider insights to this matter?

I am profesional in Soviet/Russian navy. 😉 So I have to say that project 1153 was the progenitor of project 1143.5 “Asmiral Kuznetsov”. The Kuznetsov was a slightly smaller solution because the soviet navy had not developed in satidfactory level the technology of catapelts, and thats why the project 1143.5 kuznetsov is “sky jumped”. The 1153 was much smaller than the mighty project 1161 “Oryol” which was designed in 1972 – before the constuction of Kievs- and 1153, was cancelled because of lach of “know how” for catapults. If you see even the nuclear powered “Ulianofsk” of project 1143.7 was sky jumped because of …. lack of catapults.

4×2 AK230 (Ak630?) – Red
2x SN-N-4 (OSA) – Blue
2+ x RBU – Purple
2×2 100mm or twin 76mm – Green
? orange

Former Soviet Carriers always have very big islands? Which, must impact the flight deck and hanger deck as well………….

From http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/flankers_pages/russian_carriers.html

Well I was talking about actual physical system fits.
Anyway the drawing process of 1153 may take awhile, its one huge ship and with the vague detail information its equally frustrating as it is demanding. But Golly wont give up that easy, I will complete it, even if its one line per day but it shall be done!!;)

You are a true artist!:diablo:

Well I was talking about actual physical system fits.
Anyway the drawing process of 1153 may take awhile, its one huge ship and with the vague detail information its equally frustrating as it is demanding. But Golly wont give up that easy, I will complete it, even if its one line per day but it shall be done!!;)

You are wrong regarding 1144 Golly. The original project called for Kinzhal, Kortik and AK-130. As none were going to be ready on schedule, on the first ship they all were replaced with Osa, AK-630 and AK-100. On Frunze AK-130 was already installed, but still Osa and AK-630, on Kalinin AK-130 and Kortik were present but no Kinzhal still, and finally Peter with full weapon suit, but still only one Kinzhal set. I guess, if 1153 would have been built, they would have performed very similar change.

Well I’ve seen a cut-way drawing the Mars-Passat and that what made me wonder this in the first place.

What comes to 1144’s, the first unit, Kirov didn’t have either Kinzhal nor Kortik. Frunze had Kinzhal fitted alongside OSA-M and only Kalinin had the full set of Kinzhals and Kortiks.

But soviets propaply would have build several of the 1153 if it had materialized so why not having them all?. Lets say the first unit was launched Around 1978, seccond one in 1982 and third in 1985. The fist unit would have only Kinzhals and AK-630s, and the seccond and third having Kinzhals and Kortiks. Also as the Mars-Passat didn’t prooven out to be so succesfull, the thir unit would (in the lines of real world Varyag) have the Mars-passat replaced by the Forum suite. Once i’ve drawn the first one, its not an hard job to add or remove small things like radars and weapons.

Yes, technically it should be possible. The available internal space in the superstructure will be somewhat less though, may be that’s the reason the design was changed. If You’ve seen the picture of Mars-Passat mockup, there’s hell-of-alot equipment inside.
BTW, Kortik was planned for 1144 as well, which entered service in 1980 with Kinzhal replaced by Osa and Kortik by AK-630.

I mainly ment that the late commision date of Kuznetsov (counting from the point where soviets started to pursue conventional carriers) made it possiple that the latest soviet weapons systems were ready for it.

No, Golly, unfortunately this is one of the “pocket” museums of design bureaus and it’s possible to get there only if you have very good contacts at that design bureau.

Dammed..:( We need to get someone inside…;)

As for the weapon suite, even if the 1153 would have been laid down in late 70’s, basicly in the place of Baku, I doupt the Kortik would have been ready for it.
But another question comes to my mind. The linedrawing clearly shows some sort of passive array radars, similar to the Mars-Passat. If we play along that the ship would have laid down in the place of Baku, the system naturally would have been availble. The question is that can the system be mounted in the way that it is in the linedrawing? Meanng angled in the way of Alreigh Burke/052C style?

Due the lenghtly arms-wrestling, Kuznetsov actually benefitted for the time and had the latest weapon-systems to be ready ofr it.

It is not certain how beneficial the weapon-systems actually would have been.

No, Golly, unfortunately this is one of the “pocket” museums of design bureaus and it’s possible to get there only if you have very good contacts at that design bureau.
As for Kortik and Kinzhal, they both were designed during the same time period – started in the end of 70’s (around 78, IIRC), ship trials started in 1982 for Kinzhal and in 1983 for Kortik, both accepted by Navy in 1989. So, Kortik was intended for both 1153 and 1143.3 and.4. Also keep in mind that Kortik production rates were much lower than Kinzhal, because they were initially manufactured by KBP itself. That’s why it seems that they are later design.

Is the museum where this model is open for public?

Anyway As for Kinzhal it’s quite logical that it might have been intended for this class but Kortik? Even Baku didn’t have them, only AK-630s. So perhaps Kinzhal and AK-630s being the right mix for 1153??

There are no easy answers, Golly. Until there will be lucky guy with digital camera in Nevsky PKB museum, we will have no better photos.
As to the weapon suite, take notice that 1143.4 (Gorshkov) was layed down in 1978 instead of cancelled first 1153. Effectively this means that at least the later version of 1153 was meant to have Kinzhal and Kortik or to put it short – weapon suite of 1143.4. As for the the initial version of 1153, you said already, that Novorossiysk was designed with Kinzhal and Kortik as well, meaning that 1153 (started in 1973) was most probably from the beginning designed for the same armement. You can rule out Uragan though, as it’s area defence SAM (Russian term is SAM for collective defence) and therefore was not going to be installed on aircraft cruisers, because their collective defence function was performed by airwing.
Hope this helps.;)

Due the lenghtly arms-wrestling, Kuznetsov actually benefitted for the time and had the latest weapon-systems to be ready ofr it. For the drawing I’m planning to field the weapons that were orginally intended for the 1153 during the days of its design, around 1972-3. Back then Neither CADS-N-1 nor SA-N-9 wasen’t availble (tough perhaps in designboard already?) so I’m trying to figure out would the ship been designed with existing weaponsystems, mainly with SA-N-4 or with systems that were just begun their life in the designboard. To support the later, good example is the earlier project 1160. It dated few years earlier, but was intended to use the Su-27 which in those days was still only in papers. Also the model shows AK-100 fitted in the forward sponsons (in the lines of french carriers) and that gun was first fielded onboard Krivak II in the mid 70’s.

Gol: mate you are right in saying that it does raise more questions than it answers, but IIRC the answers you seek lay in what the Kuznetsov has deployed on her- after all, she is a modified version of the Orel class suited for more modern weapons and aircraft (Don’t forget, the Orel’s were supposed to have the naval version of the Mig-23’s aboard).