Belgian Navy recieves "Leopold I" frigate

i think the contract, everything included, was valued at 250 million euro.

For Portugal, the purchase of the Van Nes (F833) and Van Galen (F834) was valued at 240 million Euro, officially

name?

the ship recieved the name F-930 “Leopold I” and is the first of 2 ex-RNLN M-frigates to be delivered, the second frigate, “Koningin Elisabeth II“, will be handed over in 2008.

wasn’t the second the “Louise Marie”:confused:

No organic helos. Trying to operate helicopters from platforms with no organic maintenance facilities is an exceedingly short term oiption.

That is not entirely true either. For now that is the case with the class, but as I understand it they have been prepared for a hangar below deck accessed with en elevator.

No organic helos. Trying to operate helicopters from platforms with no organic maintenance facilities is an exceedingly short term oiption.

Unicorn

4 Visby (with no helicopters)…

That is not entirely true.

Narrow??, i think that will apply more to your reasoning as i have no idea what you can do with 1 operational frigate at any time in the middle of the ocean?? protect Belgian interests? May i remind you we are a very small country with only 65 km of coast, no colonies or offshore land.

I know, I live next door. And as you know, we went from 2 S, 8 M’s and 4 LCF to just 2 M’s and 4 LCF. And we do have overseas interests (Antilles).
Point is, Belgium operates as part of NATO, and so as part of larger forces than she can field herself. See also what the Danes do.

Maybe we should hunt for enemy subs in the passific or indian ocean?
Times have changed for most small EU contries, the cold war is over, there are more pressing matters to achieve then blue water ops. With new, fast ships we could we far more effective in countering terorism, finding illegal shipping, guarding the environment by co- operating with other federal services like economic affairs, customs, health and safety, borderguard, etc…

For those tasks, there are much more cost-effective solutions than Visby.
See Italy’s Commandante class (NUMC) and “Cassiopea 2” or “Costellazioni 2” class (NUPA)

Havind no helicopter aboard is a downside to the visby, but as i said, visby was a example, there are other designs out there. In the event of a lack of organic helicopter i might add that it can easily come from shore when needed in a belgian scenario.

Back to narrow….

You might wanne think about teh future of teh belgian navy as a whole because at the molent with a dwelling budget for defense, it’s existence is about to become a formality, A costs that has very little to offer in teh traditional navy thinking style.

That’s why smaller NATO countries should cooperate more closely. Either on co-development (Canada, Germany, Netherlands > APAR ; Spain, Netherlands > LPD, AOR ; Belgium, Netherlands and non-NATO France > tripartite MH’s) or role specialization, or streamlined co-purchase.

Is that what the Belgian navy’s task is? Guarding and controlling the bussiest shipping line in the world? I.e. the English channel? That’s a rather narrow view, IMHO.

4 Visby (with no helicopters) vice 2 Doorman (with helicopters) … pfff, what improvement?

You could have had Doorman’s to begin with 10 years ago!

Doorman’s kick a$$ with the best of em.

Narrow??, i think that will apply more to your reasoning as i have no idea what you can do with 1 operational frigate at any time in the middle of the ocean?? protect Belgian interests? May i remind you we are a very small country with only 65 km of coast, no colonies or offshore land.

Maybe we should hunt for enemy subs in the passific or indian ocean?
Times have changed for most small EU contries, the cold war is over, there are more pressing matters to achieve then blue water ops. With new, fast ships we could we far more effective in countering terorism, finding illegal shipping, guarding the environment by co- operating with other federal services like economic affairs, customs, health and safety, borderguard, etc…

Havind no helicopter aboard is a downside to the visby, but as i said, visby was a example, there are other designs out there. In the event of a lack of organic helicopter i might add that it can easily come from shore when needed in a belgian scenario.

You might wanne think about teh future of teh belgian navy as a whole because at the molent with a dwelling budget for defense, it’s existence is about to become a formality, A costs that has very little to offer in teh traditional navy thinking style.

Why use the royal title for one vessel and not the other?

I wonder if we bought any weapons with them :diablo: ….

they look nice, but i think smaller vessels would be more usefull in a belgian defense senario, I don’t think belgium should invest alot in Blue water ops, now we have 2 frigates, meaning 1 available at any time, nice vessels with potential no doubt, but unsufficient for guarding and controlling the bussiest shipping line in the world. Another wasted investment with our limited budget, but what do you exspect with our current minister of defense…………

buying 4 visby class (or alike) class ships would have been more usefull, as they have far reduced operation costs, if we still had shipyards in belgium they could have been build here under licence (good for the economy)

anybody have the right procurement costs of the dutrch frigates to compare? (inclusing the overhaul cost)

a visby costs 185 million $, if what i found is correct, being 139 million euros each, the 2 dutch frigates cost 250 million euro’s (for the 2, so 125 million each), but are second hand, have twice the crew and will be worn out in 10 years. I’m not the best accountant, but i think we were had by the dutch, thanks to the “”brilliant”” strategy of our minister.

Is that what the Belgian navy’s task is? Guarding and controlling the bussiest shipping line in the world? I.e. the English channel? That’s a rather narrow view, IMHO.

4 Visby (with no helicopters) vice 2 Doorman (with helicopters) … pfff, what improvement?

You could have had Doorman’s to begin with 10 years ago!

Doorman’s kick a$$ with the best of em.

a visby costs 185 million $, if what i found is correct, being 139 million euros each, the 2 dutch frigates cost 250 million euro’s (for the 2, so 125 million each), but are second hand, have twice the crew and will be worn out in 10 years. I’m not the best accountant, but i think we were had by the dutch, thanks to the “”brilliant”” strategy of our minister.

I think you need to have a good look at exactly what you are suggesting.

You are comparing a 650 tonne corvette with a limited range of capabilities with a 3300 tonne multi-mission capable frigate

Visby’s cost $185 million each by your figures. A much more capable frigate with the capacity to operate in far worse weather conditions costs $125 million each.

Yes they have twice tha manning, but they have a more capable weapon fit, including ASuw, ASW and AAW, If you purchased four Visby’s you would still have the same manning requirement, so no saving there despite having less effective vessels.

Instead you have two vessels which already come with the capacity to self deploy much further distances than the Visby’s and which include such useful capabilities as an organic helicopter capability.

The M class also come equipped with the C3I capability to immediately itegrate into a NATO task force, whereas the Visby’s would need to be fitted with such equipment, for which space would have to be found in a much smaller and quite cramped vessel.

Finally you claim they would be worn out in ten years.

I would like to know why you think their new owners would basically destroy them in 10 years, when the vessels were only commissioned in 1991. They are 16 years old, and are quite capable of another 20 years of service.

The Wielingen class have been in service for some 29 years, I fail to see why the same could not be true for the Leopold I and Koningin Elisabeth II.

Besides, the Visby class are made from carbon fibre and composites, hardly materials you could count on for extended life durability in the conditions to be found in the North Sea and the Atlantic.

Unicorn

i think the contract, everything included, was valued at 250 million euro.

I wonder if we bought any weapons with them :diablo: ….

they look nice, but i think smaller vessels would be more usefull in a belgian defense senario, I don’t think belgium should invest alot in Blue water ops, now we have 2 frigates, meaning 1 available at any time, nice vessels with potential no doubt, but unsufficient for guarding and controlling the bussiest shipping line in the world. Another wasted investment with our limited budget, but what do you exspect with our current minister of defense…………

buying 4 visby class (or alike) class ships would have been more usefull, as they have far reduced operation costs, if we still had shipyards in belgium they could have been build here under licence (good for the economy)

anybody have the right procurement costs of the dutrch frigates to compare? (inclusing the overhaul cost)

a visby costs 185 million $, if what i found is correct, being 139 million euros each, the 2 dutch frigates cost 250 million euro’s (for the 2, so 125 million each), but are second hand, have twice the crew and will be worn out in 10 years. I’m not the best accountant, but i think we were had by the dutch, thanks to the “”brilliant”” strategy of our minister.