Brit carrier air groups 1960s

Alas no, but it did have two retractable unguided rocket packs fitted under the ‘chin’, which could be used in close quarter combat like a gun.

Could those packs have possibly been converted for guns ? Was this tried ?
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LAUNCH BOX VAPORIZER

The only thing he was supposed to need to see was the radar display, and the lack of daylight in his “office” meant he could see that better.

Of course, the USN & USAF found that, if things got a bit close (Sidewinder range rather than Sparrow range) that the second pair of eyes looking for enemy (and friendly) aircraft was rather valuable.

Did the Sea vixen navigator not sit in an enclosed compartment next to the pilot called a “coal hole”? Must have been odd not to have a view outside….

During th first half of the 60s the Sea Vixen was partnered with the Supermarine Scimitar F1, which was employed mainly as a strike aircraft but was originally designed as a fighter. It had no radar (although one was proposed for later models, which were cancelled in favour of the Buccaneer), but it did have four 30mm ADEN cannon fitted internally below the jet intakes. It was a very fast transonic (could break the sound barrier in a dive)and agile day fighter with 20,000lbs of thrust on tap (2 RR Avon engines) and while the Sea Vixens could provide the outer layer of air defence the Scimitars could provide an inner ring under the ships radar control. The scimitar was cleared to fire AIM-9B Sidewinders as well as Bullpup air to ground missiles from it’s four underwing pylons.

Unfortunately the Scimitar had ‘issues’, I understand the RN lost 37 out of 76 aircraft delivered due to its poor handling. It’s nickname was apparently the ‘Beast’, with reason.

Unicorn

I spoke to the ‘Red Bull’ Sea Vixen pilot back in 2003. He told me the Vixen was (still) capable of Mach 1.3. This guy flew Lightnings and Phantoms in his time. Ian Black tangled with the Vixen over the ranges in Wales, said it would easily out turn the Lightning. I’m guessing it would have made a capable fighter. Not like de Havilland to make a pup. I imagine it could have been modified for the AIM-9 if necessary.

But probaly no “Joint force Traves….uh….I mean Harrier”

Would have been interesting to see the RN today had CVA-01 not been canned.

It would probably be much the same as it is today only with bigger carriers.

Would have been interesting to see the RN today had CVA-01 not been canned.

The Royal Navy realy loved heavy radar equiped fighters- if you look at pretty much every fighter they considered to replace the Sea Vixen they all had a large radar fitted- that was one of the big problems for the P-1154RN, it was required by the Navy to have two seats and a massive AI radar. This is partly representative of the RN’s role in a cold war scenario, the carriers would operate to hold the GIUK line, thus the only soviet aircraft they were likely to come across in this period were large Maritime Bombers and MPA’s (the likes of the Bear) and helicopters, so the large interceptor fitted in perfectly.

The Red Top may have still been effective against Soviet Strategic Bombers in the 80’s but I would be very sceptical about its perfromance against Soviet fighters. In fact the Red Top was probably kept in service more becouse the lightnings were not replaced than anything else. There were several studies about putting Sidewinders on the lightnings. There was also a project that got cancelled to evolve the Red Top into a missile analogous to the AIM-7 sparrow- I believe it was called Blue Dolphin (IIRC it was an admiralty requirement).

The Royal Navy took shipbourne air defence very seriously, they just lacked the money to fund it too the extent they wanted. For instance the CVA-01 design would have had GWS-30 Sea dart and the huge Type-988 radar, to significant detriment of the aircraft operating capacity (the Bristol class escorts were also to have had this radar but it got cancelled). It was intended to fit the Type-1030 STIR to the Type-42, but again the radar got cancelled and a less luxurious one fitted. In the 80’s there was the Type-43 project which produced a design that would have had 2 Sea dart systems and 4 six round sea wolf launchers. At the same time the improved GWS-31 sea dart Mk2 was being worked on but it also got cancelled. The Invincibles originally had Sea Dart fitted but it was removed to improve the ships aviation capabilitys.

Even going back to the 50’s and 60’s, we see Hermes, Victorious and Eagle getting the Type-984 radar- a fantastic piece of kit when it worked. The Type-984 would also have been installed on the sea slug armed cruisers that were considered in the 50’s (again insufficient funding). There was a proposal to convert Majestic class light fleet carriers into AAW vessels by installing two Sea Slug launchers and the Type-984 radar in order to enhance the fleets AAW capability. The county class were fitted with both Seacat (used on most RN warships) and sea slug to give two tier air defence.

Did Sea Vixen have a gun?

Alas no, but it did have two retractable unguided rocket packs fitted under the ‘chin’, which could be used in close quarter combat like a gun. A bit like a SNEB rocket pod (they could also carry RN 2 in rocket pods under the wings, the Sea Vixen had six pylons four of which were used for Red Top missiles and the other two for drop tanks, but rocket pods could be substituted.) and it wouldn’t have been too difficult to clear them to carry a gun pod like the Phanton FGR2, had the need arose.

During th first half of the 60s the Sea Vixen was partnered with the Supermarine Scimitar F1, which was employed mainly as a strike aircraft but was originally designed as a fighter. It had no radar (although one was proposed for later models, which were cancelled in favour of the Buccaneer), but it did have four 30mm ADEN cannon fitted internally below the jet intakes. It was a very fast transonic (could break the sound barrier in a dive)and agile day fighter with 20,000lbs of thrust on tap (2 RR Avon engines) and while the Sea Vixens could provide the outer layer of air defence the Scimitars could provide an inner ring under the ships radar control. The scimitar was cleared to fire AIM-9B Sidewinders as well as Bullpup air to ground missiles from it’s four underwing pylons.

Did Sea Vixen have a gun?

Just been thinking…….but……could the Sea Vixen have adequatly defended an RN carrier TG? It seems to me that against Bears or Badgers it would have been ok, but what bout MIG-17s an 21s? Could Sea Slug have worked?

The Sea Vixen was equipped with the same weapon system as the RAF’s Lightnings (Red Top IR homing AAMs), which were still considered viable front line fighters up to 1989. The only difference is the Lightning was supersonic, but it only carried two missiles against the Sea Vixens four. It was also cosidered highly manouverable for it’s time (it was effectively a flying wing design) and would have been a match in a dogfight for most Soviet fighters of the era. Sea Slug was a ‘Beam Rider’ which meant accuracy decreased at longer ranges, something that affected all first generation SAMs.

Just been thinking…….but……could the Sea Vixen have adequatly defended an RN carrier TG? It seems to me that against Bears or Badgers it would have been ok, but what bout MIG-17s an 21s? Could Sea Slug have worked?

The Douglas Skynight claimed a few MiG-15s over Korea.

There is no reason to suppose that Sea Vixen flying as a “night fighter” might not have done well against the MiG-17 or MiG-21.

Keep in mind that the North Vietnamese kept well clear of U.S. carriers on “Yankee Station.” Of course, there was an instance where a MiG was taken down by a Talos missile….