Hi
My very first post… So a big Hello to everyone..
I’m trying to find if it was possible for the pre 1980s royal navy’s fleet air arm, to easily cross deck, with the French carriers, basically if need be could we of operated our Buccs and Phants from them with some minor mods, would this be even practical, and lastly how long would such a task take to achieved.
Thank you kindly for any replies.
Issa
By: Bager1968 - 12th March 2017 at 17:47
Interestingly, I was actually with extra time today, and wandered back over here.
I just looked back on that squadron list for Ranger in late 1962-early 1963, and it has been altered!
Apparently, someone mixed things up earlier, as I cannot find anything to match it in Ranger’s deployment list now.
The corrected entry reads:
VF-91 (F-8C)
VF-93 (A-4C)
VA-94 (A-4C)
VA-95 (A-1H/J)
VA-96 (F-4B)
VAH-6 (A-3B)
VAW-11 (E-1B)
VFP-63 Det.M (RF-8A)
HU-1 (UH-25C)
So yes, that does match with Hermes’ visit to the Philippines after Christmas of 1962!
However…
As for that photo – in the PDF linked below which describes the post-Christmas 1962/Jan. 1963 operations, note the comment “practice roller-landings“… known in the USN as a “touch & go”, the aircraft does not lower its arresting hook, and never actually stops on the flight deck – it just touches down, then lifts right back off.
So the photo of a Phantom and Hermes shows not a full landing, but a T&G – a nice photo op, but Hermes’ arresting gear & catapults were never used with Ranger’s Phantoms.
http://www.axfordsabode.org.uk/pdf-docs/hermes14.pdf
By: tankdriver67 - 12th February 2017 at 00:26
So many have been driven away in the last few years. I miss the interesting and (mostly) civil discusions from awhile back.
By: F-18RN - 11th February 2017 at 11:15
Well, that shot looks good… VF-96 I see, but there is only one problem.
The large tail letters indicate which Air Wing an aircraft belongs to… and each air wing is only assigned to one carrier at any time.
There is no possibility of that photo being taken before 1966, because no F-4 carried the NG tail letters before Hermes started her refit on 24 Feb 1964… when she got the longer port catapult. Therefore, that photo had to be taken after May 1966!
History of 1960s F-4B Phantom deployments with tail letters NG:
CV-61 Ranger
August 5, 1964 – May 6, 1965
VF-92 (F-4B)
VF-96 (F-4B)CVN-65 Enterprise
October 26, 1965 – June 21, 1966
VF-92 (F-4B)
VF-96 (F-4B)November 19, 1966 – July 6, 1967
VF-92 (F-4B)
VF-96 (F-4B)January 3, 1968 -July 18, 1968
VF-92 (F-4B)
VF-96 (F-4B)In 1963 the Air Wing designated NG was indeed assigned to the Ranger, but here is the list of aircraft aboard Ranger in early 1963… and there are no F-4s aboard at all!
November 9, 1962 – June 14, 1963 (NG)
VF-91 (F8U)
VF-92 (F3H)
VA-93 (A4D)
VA-94 (A4D)
VA-95 (AD-7)
VAH-6 (A3D)
VAW-11 Det.M (E-1B)
VFP-63 Det.M (F8U-1P)
HU-1 Det.M (UH-2B)
[this list uses the pre-1962 unification designations… the AD-7 is the A-1J in the post-1962 scheme]The first deployment of Ranger with Phantoms :
August 5, 1964 – May 6, 1965 (NG)
VF-92 (F-4B)
VF-96 (F-4B)
VA-93 (A-4C)
VA-95 (A-1J and A-1H)
VA-94 (A-4C)
RVAH-5 (RA-5C)
VFP-63 Det M (RF-8A)
VAW-11 Det M (E-1B)
VAH-2 Det M (A-3B)
HU-1 Unit M (UH-2A)
VAP-61 Det (RA-3B)*
VQ-1 Det (EA-3B)*This data is from here: http://navysite.de/carriers.htm
1. click on a Carrier… Ranger for example: http://navysite.de/cvn/cv61.htm
2. scroll down until you see: “Click here to get a view of the deployments of USS RANGER” [here is the link: http://navysite.de/cvn/cv61deploy.htm ]
3. click and a list appears with this data: Date of Departure; Date of Return; CVW (Air Wing #); Squadrons (Aircraft); Tail code; Area of Operations; Battle Group; Operations/Exercises; Ports of CallSorry, but your story and photo are not correct… unless you believe the USN is participating in the RN’s grand coverup so deeply that they are altering the records of ship & aircraft deployments!
I accept that that photo is authentic… and shows an F-4B (or J) on Hermes… AFTER May 1966!
I know the above post is 11 years old and I think someone said that Bager1968 no longer frequents here, however I own a book entitled ‘HMS Hermes 1959-1964’ by Lt. Cdr Tony Dyson https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/Books/H-M-S-Hermes-1959-84/0907771165/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1486811472&sr=1-3&keywords=hms+hermes which is reminiscent of Neil McCart’s ship’s career books and alongside the photo of an F-4B Obi Wan Russell referred to is the caption: US Navy aircraft from the USS Ranger cross operate with Hermes off the Philippines in January 1963.
By: tankdriver67 - 10th February 2017 at 23:53
[QUOTE=Yama;2373643]And to continue on necromancing the thread, was any consideration given to buying Buccaneers for Aeronavale? Because “Oh woe, our carriers are so small” was ever
EXACTLY!!
By: Yama - 10th February 2017 at 21:44
Did Buccaneers ever cross-deck on Clemenceau or Foch?
And to continue on necromancing the thread, was any consideration given to buying Buccaneers for Aeronavale? Because “Oh woe, our carriers are so small” was ever-present excuse against buying anything non-Dassault, but apparently Buccaneer could have operated off the French carriers just fine?
By: tankdriver67 - 10th February 2017 at 11:14
Did Buccaneers ever cross-deck on Clemenceau or Foch?
By: frankvw - 27th October 2006 at 09:45
Very interesting …
And welcome to the forums, Isabella !
By: Bager1968 - 27th October 2006 at 06:43
Well, that shot looks good… VF-96 I see, but there is only one problem.
The large tail letters indicate which Air Wing an aircraft belongs to… and each air wing is only assigned to one carrier at any time.
There is no possibility of that photo being taken before 1966, because no F-4 carried the NG tail letters before Hermes started her refit on 24 Feb 1964… when she got the longer port catapult. Therefore, that photo had to be taken after May 1966!
History of 1960s F-4B Phantom deployments with tail letters NG:
CV-61 Ranger
August 5, 1964 – May 6, 1965
VF-92 (F-4B)
VF-96 (F-4B)
CVN-65 Enterprise
October 26, 1965 – June 21, 1966
VF-92 (F-4B)
VF-96 (F-4B)
November 19, 1966 – July 6, 1967
VF-92 (F-4B)
VF-96 (F-4B)
January 3, 1968 -July 18, 1968
VF-92 (F-4B)
VF-96 (F-4B)
In 1963 the Air Wing designated NG was indeed assigned to the Ranger, but here is the list of aircraft aboard Ranger in early 1963… and there are no F-4s aboard at all!
November 9, 1962 – June 14, 1963 (NG)
VF-91 (F8U)
VF-92 (F3H)
VA-93 (A4D)
VA-94 (A4D)
VA-95 (AD-7)
VAH-6 (A3D)
VAW-11 Det.M (E-1B)
VFP-63 Det.M (F8U-1P)
HU-1 Det.M (UH-2B)
[this list uses the pre-1962 unification designations… the AD-7 is the A-1J in the post-1962 scheme]
The first deployment of Ranger with Phantoms :
August 5, 1964 – May 6, 1965 (NG)
VF-92 (F-4B)
VF-96 (F-4B)
VA-93 (A-4C)
VA-95 (A-1J and A-1H)
VA-94 (A-4C)
RVAH-5 (RA-5C)
VFP-63 Det M (RF-8A)
VAW-11 Det M (E-1B)
VAH-2 Det M (A-3B)
HU-1 Unit M (UH-2A)
VAP-61 Det (RA-3B)*
VQ-1 Det (EA-3B)*
This data is from here: http://navysite.de/carriers.htm
1. click on a Carrier… Ranger for example: http://navysite.de/cvn/cv61.htm
2. scroll down until you see: “Click here to get a view of the deployments of USS RANGER” [here is the link: http://navysite.de/cvn/cv61deploy.htm ]
3. click and a list appears with this data: Date of Departure; Date of Return; CVW (Air Wing #); Squadrons (Aircraft); Tail code; Area of Operations; Battle Group; Operations/Exercises; Ports of Call
Sorry, but your story and photo are not correct… unless you believe the USN is participating in the RN’s grand coverup so deeply that they are altering the records of ship & aircraft deployments!
I accept that that photo is authentic… and shows an F-4B (or J) on Hermes… AFTER May 1966!
By: Obi Wan Russell - 26th October 2006 at 12:24
As to wether or not Hermes actually operated USN F-4Bs, I suppose seeing is believing:
http://img113.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hmshermesr120030abd8.jpg
FG1s as part of Hermes air group would have been employed primarily for air defence, and although the problems you have raised would have made the situation less than ideal, the intention was to ‘hold on’ until CVA-03 was built (CVA-02 was to replace Victorious in 1972, CVA-02 Ark Royal in 1976, CVA-03 Hermes by 1980 and CVA-04 Eagle by 1984, my calculations based on the original construction schedule and likely delays).
The Crusader would have been easier to operate but was slower than the phantom and had less payload, so was less appealing on paper to RN planners, who were looking beyond the existing flat tops the CVA-01 class. I have always thought that the Jaguar would have emerged in the 70s in Naval strike form (not just the french Jaguar M, which was not fully developed) and would have been easier to operate from smaller British decks.
Hermes port catapult could have been extended further if needed as it ran on a fore and aft axis with no obstructions behind for some distance. Upgrading her arrestor gear to DAX11 standard would have solved the recovery problem, and the angled deck could also have been extended forwards (as was done to Charles de Gaulle) to improve safety margins. My point is that a lot of untruths have been circulated about the British CV force of the 60s by those who wanted to justify the stupid descision to withdraw them from service.
By: Bager1968 - 26th October 2006 at 04:50
Hermes cross-deck with CV-61 Ranger was in January 1963, in the Western Pacific.
VA-95 participated… with their A-1 Skyraider prop-driven attack aircraft.
No mention of F-4s, however I doubt that they could have for the simple reason that she only had 35,000lb arresting gear, and the F-4B weighs 28,000 pounds empty. This means that they would have very little reserve fuel, etc. in order to land, but this is possible.
More important, though, is that the F-4’s take-off speed is considerably faster than that of the Buccaneer… in excess of 120 knots, even with a weight of 38,500 pounds combat weight (fuel and missiles only)… which the short BS-4 could not achieve (40,000lb@78kt), even with 25-27 knots ship speed. Was there 15+ knots wind speed?
Yes, Buccs did fly from Hermes before she got the extended BS-4 cat, but only in a test role… not operationally.
“C” Sqdn (Test squadron for Buccaneer Mk1 prototype) – test flying and development of weapon system and sea trials in HMS HERMES, VICTORIOUS & ARK ROYAL.
I do believe that with the longer BS-4 cat and the upgraded arresting gear she got in 1966 that Hermes could operate the Phantom FG Mk.1 [in fighter mode only… maybe with a light bomb load], especially with the FG Mk.1’s modifications (larger flaps & more bleed-air to the boundary layer control to reduce landing speed; longer nose gear leg increasing angle-of-attack to reduce take-off speed).
The problem is, with the already small air wing, having to use some Buccaneers as tankers means a very small strike package.
1966-1967
809 sqn. 7 Buccaneer S2
892 sqn. 12 Sea Vixen FAW2
849 sqn. B flt. 4 Gannet AEW3, 1 Gannet COD4
826 sqn. 5 Wessex HAS3
Ships Flight 1 Wessex HAS1 (SAR)
As the Phantom is larger than the Sea Vixen, and with tanker Buccs:
10 Buccaneer S2 (extra 3 specifically for tanker duties)
8 Phantoms FG Mk.1
4 AEW3 Gannet
1 COD4 Gannet
5 HAS3 Wessex
1 HAS1 Wessex
The best-case would be: 2 Buccs & 2 ‘Tooms down for maintenance, 2 Buccs tanking the ‘Tooms… only 6 Phantoms and 6 Buccaneers for a maximum strike… not really useful.
Much better would have seen the RN buy the Spey-powered 2-seat F-8 Crusader (smaller than the Sea Vixen) that had been offered in 1964… Hermes could have had an air group of:
10 Buccaneer S2
12 Crusader F Mk.1
4 AEW3 Gannet
1 COD4 Gannet
5 HAS3 Wessex
1 HAS1 Wessex
With no need for tanking: 2 Buccs & 3 “Two-saders” down for maintenance… 8-S2 & 9-“Two-sader”. Strike package of 33% more Buccs & 50% more fighters (than with the F-4… 33% more Buccs & the same # of fighters as with Sea Vixen). All told, much better.
By: Obi Wan Russell - 25th October 2006 at 14:52
Clemenceau used the UK short-run BS-5 catapult… the same as the bow catapult on Eagle and Ark Royal in their final versions, so they were fully capable of operating Buccaneers, however the catapults and arresting gear were capable of handling the Phantoms only with a very light payload.
The Phantoms only launched with a full payload from the angle catapult on Eagle and Ark Royal (long-run BS-5 catapult).
Type Run Length Capacity
BS4 103ft 160ft 40,000lb@78kt Hermes [starboard]
BS4 145ft 200ft 50,000lb@97kt Hermes [port only] 1966
BS5 199ft 268ft 50,000lb@105kt Eagle 1964 & Ark Royal 1970 [angle only]
BS5 151ft 220ft 50,000lb@91kt (33,000lb@150kt) Eagle 1964 & Ark Royal 1970 [bow only]; Foch & ClemenceauFoch & Clemenceau were both larger than Hermes, which did operate Buccaneers after her port BS-4 catapult was lengthened in 1964-66.
Hermes could launch Buccaneers from both her catapults before and after her 64-66 refit, the longer portside cat gave a better safety margin in low wind conditions. Also, Shock Horror! Hermes refit was intended to allow Phantoms to operated off her deck (she only needed the JBDs upgrading and bridle catchers to be fitted, originally scheduled for her 68 refit), and before anyone states she was too small to operate F-4s, she already had operated them in 1963 BEFORE her catapults were upgraded. F-4Bs, as well as other USN types cross decked to Hermes from the USS Ranger, and returned without difficulty.
After the ‘Healy Axe’ of 1966 a lot of untruths were pedalled to justify the premature phasing out of the British carrier fleet, and as Hermes was only a few years old retiring her after only ten years in service would have been difficult, so officially she became ‘too small’ to operate Phantoms (despite having done so already) and was effectively ‘disarmed’ to become a troop transport in 1971-73 (commando carrier) to replace her half sister HMS Albion (herself barely 19 years old at the time, good for another ten years at least). None of the RNs carriers were in desperate need of replacement at the time, Victorious had completed an eight year refit in 1958 (effectively a SLEP) that at the time was said to have extended her life by twenty years (to 1978), Eagle had been similarly refitted 1959-64 (so would be usable until 1984) and Ark Royal had a truncated refit 1967-70 which still kept her going until 1978.
If Hermes had recieved Phantoms, they may have been limited to the Air defence role only, but she had a Buccaneer sqn for strike missions anyway, so this would be acceptable. The F-4s could have launched with a full bomb load but reduced fuel and top up their tanks from Buccaneer tankers if needed (a technique used aboard Eagle in 64-66 when she operated S1 Buccaneers and Scimitar tankers).
By: TinWing - 21st October 2006 at 15:33
The take-off weights and speed for the A-6 required more than the “short” BS-5 could put out.
The A-6 did, however, fly off the Ark Royal in an “exchange” operation:
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=44318Note the USN Phantom as well.
The new A-6Es & the EA-6Bs were only fitted for the nose-bar type launch, and the A-6A>E conversions had the bridle attachment points removed.
The A-7A/B/C, and maybe the E now, could have operated off the French carriers… although they might have been restricted to a lower max payload.
I would think that the limited clearance between the jet blast deflector and the catapult would have limited the length of the run of a nose-bar equipped aircraft.
By: Bager1968 - 20th October 2006 at 08:33
The take-off weights and speed for the A-6 required more than the “short” BS-5 could put out.
The A-6 did, however, fly off the Ark Royal in an “exchange” operation:
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=44318
Note the USN Phantom as well.
The new A-6Es & the EA-6Bs were only fitted for the nose-bar type launch, and the A-6A>E conversions had the bridle attachment points removed.
The A-7A/B/C, and maybe the E now, could have operated off the French carriers… although they might have been restricted to a lower max payload.
By: isabella - 19th October 2006 at 11:58
Hi
Thxs for the info, if i can pick your brain alittle further, any idea if A-6s could be cat launched from the french carriers, i know the early model A-6s had the bridle system, and even the A-7s, but what about later model A-6e, and the EA-6?
Thxs for your time.
By: Bager1968 - 19th October 2006 at 03:14
Clemenceau used the UK short-run BS-5 catapult… the same as the bow catapult on Eagle and Ark Royal in their final versions, so they were fully capable of operating Buccaneers, however the catapults and arresting gear were capable of handling the Phantoms only with a very light payload.
The Phantoms only launched with a full payload from the angle catapult on Eagle and Ark Royal (long-run BS-5 catapult).
Type Run Length Capacity
BS4 103ft 160ft 40,000lb@78kt Hermes [starboard]
BS4 145ft 200ft 50,000lb@97kt Hermes [port only] 1966
BS5 199ft 268ft 50,000lb@105kt Eagle 1964 & Ark Royal 1970 [angle only]
BS5 151ft 220ft 50,000lb@91kt (33,000lb@150kt) Eagle 1964 & Ark Royal 1970 [bow only]; Foch & Clemenceau
Foch & Clemenceau were both larger than Hermes, which did operate Buccaneers after her port BS-4 catapult was lengthened in 1964-66.
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October 18, 2006 at 9:12 pm