By: Wanshan - 29th March 2006 at 07:51
“If the rule is 1 aircraft per thousand tons, how did the USN converted Essex CVs carry 60 F-8/A-7/A-4/A-3/S-2 aircraft on 42,000 tons max displacement?”
I would think that can be explained by the different ‘footprint’ of these aircraft:
F18E L=18.32 M W=13.62 M (wings folded: 9.32 m)
F-8 L=16.61 M W=10.87 M
A-7 L=14.60 M W=11.80 M (wings folded: 7.24 m)
A-4 L=12.29 M W= 8.38 M (non folding wing)
A-3 L=23.27 M W=22.1 M
E2C L = 17.60 m, W=24.56 m (wings folded: 8.94 m)
S-2 L = 13.26 m, W=22.13 m
By: WisePanda - 29th March 2006 at 06:03
ADS will be quite light on sams, asms and onboard asw gear. space will be optimized for airwing. there is no lack of sam and asm shooters in IN – even little corvettes walk around with 16 urans.
barak-1 and a few kashtan guns would be kept for air defence. the longer ranged barak-2 would be too large for point defence compact housing.
By: Jonesy - 29th March 2006 at 03:11
Thats why its known as a ‘rule of thumb’ surely!. Don’t think anyones suggesting that an aircraft carrier MUST be able to operate (note difference from ’embark’!!!) one aircraft per thousand tons just that it generates an approximately sensible figure, if we’re talking bout pure-carrier designs, when you apply the rule.
On this carrier design, apart from the two fast-jet types idiocy as noted by Scott, they seem to have it right for the roles the ship is obviously being optimised for i.e modest sea control, light strike, ASW and the usual peacetime taskings. Be interesting to see how it contrasts in eventual costs terms with the Italian ship seeings the capabilities of the two ships will probably be comparable.
By: Arabella-Cox - 10th March 2006 at 07:34
The Nimitz class IS capable of carrying 95 aircraft, it is just that it can only effectively operate 75-80 before deck crowding begins to interfere with movements. They currently operate only ~65, not due to aircraft size, but to budget restrictions that have removed the S-3 squadron, and only provide enough F-18s (of both types) for 4 squadrons (there used to be 5 fighter and attack squadrons on USN supercarriers).
If the rule is 1 aircraft per thousand tons, how did the USN converted Essex CVs carry 60 F-8/A-7/A-4/A-3/S-2 aircraft on 42,000 tons max displacement?
The main controlling factor on “how many aircraft/thousand tons” is the balance of the design… is it purely a floating hangar, repair shops, & flight deck like the US ships, does it carry more SAMs & ASW systems like the CdG, or is it mainly a missile-carrier with a secondary air capability like the USSR Kiev class (25-30 aircraft on over 45,000 tons)?
The 1/1,000 tons “rule” seems to be mainly for mid-range sized ships with a mix of systems, like the CdG.
I think we all can agree. That during “wartime” and any Carrier Air Wing would be much larger……………… 😀
By: Bager1968 - 10th March 2006 at 06:57
The Nimitz class IS capable of carrying 95 aircraft, it is just that it can only effectively operate 75-80 before deck crowding begins to interfere with movements. They currently operate only ~65, not due to aircraft size, but to budget restrictions that have removed the S-3 squadron, and only provide enough F-18s (of both types) for 4 squadrons (there used to be 5 fighter and attack squadrons on USN supercarriers).
If the rule is 1 aircraft per thousand tons, how did the USN converted Essex CVs carry 60 F-8/A-7/A-4/A-3/S-2 aircraft on 42,000 tons max displacement?
The main controlling factor on “how many aircraft/thousand tons” is the balance of the design… is it purely a floating hangar, repair shops, & flight deck like the US ships, does it carry more SAMs & ASW systems like the CdG, or is it mainly a missile-carrier with a secondary air capability like the USSR Kiev class (25-30 aircraft on over 45,000 tons)?
The 1/1,000 tons “rule” seems to be mainly for mid-range sized ships with a mix of systems, like the CdG.
By: WisePanda - 10th March 2006 at 06:52
12 Mig29K and 4 Mig29UBK for Gorshkov . A large number is on the cards for the ADS and land based anti ship strike. the sea harrier/NLCA has a smaller footprint than Mig29 and one engine. Makes some sense to keep them for air defence duties and the Mig29K for strike and long range patrols to increase the airframes on board.
IAF has made it clear they are interested only in air-to-surface duties on land and the IAF brahmos will be all anti-surface variants. the Su30s currently doing some naval patrols will withdraw and IN needs to buy its own fleet either Mig29K,LCA or MKI. sort of like PLANAF.
By: Arabella-Cox - 10th March 2006 at 05:40
Duh, the rule of the thumb is 1 aircraft per thousand tons. This was repeated to me in front of the P71 Hangar at CSL.
Just 30? I think not.
I’ve heard the same quote many times. If, true wouldn’t a Nimtz Class hold 95 plus!
By: Arabella-Cox - 10th March 2006 at 05:33
Duh, the rule of the thumb is 1 aircraft per thousand tons. This was repeated to me in front of the P71 Hangar at CSL.
Just 30? I think not.
By: Arabella-Cox - 10th March 2006 at 05:27
16, 12 single seaters and 4 two seaters.
With so few aircraft per AirWing. Why would India want a mix of Mig-29’s with LCA and/or Sea Harriers? :rolleyes:
FLY NAVY 😎
By: vikraal - 10th March 2006 at 05:05
16, 12 single seaters and 4 two seaters.
By: Arabella-Cox - 10th March 2006 at 04:52
Wasn’t the first batch of Mig-29K’s only 12 aircraft? :confused:
By: WisePanda - 10th March 2006 at 03:46
is anyone sure that the airwing is limited by hanger capacity and not just a initial starter kit ? has anyone seen and compared the final hanger design to a similar sized CDG carrier ?
By: Arabella-Cox - 10th March 2006 at 01:32
How many aircraft does the 40000 ton CDG carry?
I believe 32 in peace time and something like 40 plus in wartime……. :rolleyes:
By: Ja Worsley - 9th March 2006 at 16:38
If you ask me the ability of the ADS to only carry 30 aircraft is telling of the relative inexperience that the designers have of producing such large carriers.
It certainly does sound like the thing is basically a big toy doesn’t it?
By: Victor - 9th March 2006 at 15:19
Actually, Russians and a particular British firm had a lot to do with the design 😉
By: sealordlawrence - 9th March 2006 at 15:14
The CdG can carry 40 aircraft including the E2C hawkeye, I remeber reading that the plan was for the CdG to be able to carry a max load of 36 Rafales and 3/4 AEW aircraft, whether the ship is capable of that now I dont know.
As a very general rule of thumb you can say that a carrier can often carry one aircraft for 1000tons of its displacement.
If you ask me the ability of the ADS to only carry 30 aircraft is telling of the relative inexperience that the designers have of producing such large carriers. I just hope that they have managed to fit in some Amphibious capbility and/or some heavy anti-air armament, remember the CdG carrys the Arabel radar and Aster-15.
By: Victor - 9th March 2006 at 15:05
The ADS or whatever it’s called is supposed to have two angled runways. More precisely, there will be no runway that is parallel to the CL of the ship. :p
Here’s a CGI from the stern…
By: Gollevainen - 9th March 2006 at 14:47
I remember that there use to be a nice photo of the rear part of the proposed french model (28,000 tons) in Bharat-Rakshak.com site few years back but it has now gone. It was from some model, So Im just wondering, Did anyone got other pics from better angle of that modell or any corresponding one? …Or has line drawings/Scetches from it?
By: xanadu - 9th March 2006 at 14:09
How many aircraft does the 40000 ton CDG carry?
By: Arabella-Cox - 9th March 2006 at 13:48
10 more aircraft then the Italian version.
There is no way that Cavour can only carry 10 fighters.
I mean if you are going to operate STOBAR aircraft you need the angled flight deck right?
Yes.
Aircraft, only 30 and can only store 17, sounds rather silly if you ask me. What’s the point of builting a ship this big if you can store all the aircraft in it?
Deck parking.
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March 8, 2006 at 4:48 am